Rotten pork

Whitewavemark2 I don’t care how they started or how much fortune they have. My concern is for the animal and environmental welfare.

Agreed

What money others invest is really not pertinent.

Katie59

That estate is organic farming on an industrial scale they have 7 farms over thousands of acres, they also have many diversified businesses and a large property portfolio.

As with many other organic producers you start with a large fortune.

So?

I will let you know about their reply. I did ask how the animals were killed and unless they were downright lying I was very satisfied with their reply.

I don’t care how they started or how much fortune they have. My concern is for the animal and environmental welfare.

If they can produce meat to the standard I require and look after the environment to the standard necessary then I am satisfied.

There are always detractors just like there are detractors of Knepp near me. I have seen the result with my own eyes and am an enthusiastic supporter of their approach to the environment and animal welfare. Walking through countryside that is managed sustainably and organically is a joy.

That estate is organic farming on an industrial scale they have 7 farms over thousands of acres, they also have many diversified businesses and a large property portfolio.

As with many other organic producers you start with a large fortune.

I have been looking at some local producers. Quite a choice of organic grass fed farmers.

I have googled the information and have emailed the farmer. Thank you for pointing this out as my primary concern is the welfare of the animal.

I will await his reply, then do further research. If I am not satisfied, I will find an alternative source - but it will always be organic free range grass fed.

If I can’t satisfy myself then I shall consider vegetarian but I will never, ever buy meat that has been factory farmed, the cruelty is too much and imo the scandal is far worse than that experienced by the animals produced by my current supplier.

Not that we have either very often, but I only ever buy pork or gammon - strictly U.K. born and bred - from Waitrose or M&S - I don’t trust any other supermarket’s pork. Most of it in Asda, where I do most of my other shopping, is Danish, Dutch or German - it’s cheaper for a reason, and I don’t suppose I need to spell out what that reason is.

WW

Please don’t cut and paste marketing propaganda

The farmer from which I buy also advocates eating less meat, as he is concerned as I am about the environment.

He is saying all the things you want to hear.

Venison

I guess I eat organic venison on occasions, it’s wild shot so has total freedom, as does the majority of venison in the UK.

You obviously believe all the marketing hype from that company. I’m not going to name them but you must have forgotten they were the centre of a welfare scandal not long ago

I’ve been buying from my organic farmer for something like 5+ years now - there is always plenty of choice. They butcher their own meat. Occasionally there isn’t the cut you want but there is always an alternative. My farmer seems very successful and supplies every sort of meat, plus fish from Brixham fishermen plus various organic products, like broths, gravy, sauces pies etc.

I think that you are overblowing the difficulty katie59 and perhaps listening to your brothers opinion rather that thinking more critically.

The farmer from which I buy also advocates eating less meat, as he is concerned as I am about the environment.

M0nica

Plenty of framers make their living from organic farming. That is why the Soil Association is such a thriving organisation and the Pasture for Life initiative has grown so fast.

Are you an advocate for industrial farming Katie59 or are you ayou in the farming industry.

Organic accounts for only 3% of food and drink sales and much of that is imported, those in the UK are just a vulnerable to welfare issues as the rest, overseas anything might happen.

We are not farming but I was raised on a farm and my eldest brother and his family still farm, in the past mixed, these days crops only. So I know pretty much what is happening and organic is fine if you have a large estate and can make money elsewhere. As a farming system where you rely on producing organic food forget it, I’ve seen several try and fail.

Large scale farming produces 95% of the food we eat, going back to small farms is not going to happen, of course like yourself there are those that think they know better, but have no experience of what is needed.

Those that are so enthusiastic about organic should invest your own money in an organic farm and find out for yourselves just how easy it is.

Venison

Organic Venison is quite rare within the UK, with only seven farms being organically certified. All of …………… Farm Organic's venison comes from deer reared on ancient parkland in Somerset, just below the legendary Glastonbury Tor. The red deer herd was introduced to the estate 17 years ago when the farmer restored the ancient deer park to its former glory, after finding records that the park was home to red deer from the 13th until the 18th century.

Although the deer are technically farmed, they're not managed or handled in the way domesticated livestock like sheep, cattle or pigs are. They're always treated and respected as wild animals, living in an environment and eating a diet that reflects their natural way of life. Very much herd animals, there is a distinct hierarchy within the group, where the matriarchal hinds (females) rule the roost. During the rutting (breeding) season the keepers divide the stags up in the park with their own herds of hinds between September and December. If left together they would certainly fight as during this time competing males, pumped full of testosterone, will engage in a series of behaviours aimed at showing off to the hinds and establishing dominance over the other stags.

While they're mainly grass fed, the deer also eat the spelt bran waste that's a by-product from the estate's spelt production. Not only does this reduce waste, the deer thrive on it due to its high protein content. Free to roam the parkland, the deer supplement their grass diet with tree leaves, conkers, sweet chestnuts and apples.

Deer are timid but powerful creatures that have be treated with both respect and caution. For this reason, when the times comes for slaughter, they are expertly and humanely shot by a skilled marksman in the field with non-toxic bullets. Culling is necessary to manage numbers and to balance the ratio of male to female animals in the herd. Born in mid-summer, they are weaned in September to get as good a diet as possible during the winter.

In contrast to non-organic deer, the parkland they roam is never fertilised with chemicals or pesticides. Organic farming protects and develops the soil health and the fertility of the land, and it also means that no chemical taint is passed on through their meat. Eating venison has increased in popularity over the last few years as people look to alternatives to other red meats, it is naturally low in fat, high in protein and rich in minerals. Venison has a reputation for having a 'gamey' flavour that it doesn't really deserve. The flavour of fresh, organic venison is quite delicate and grassy, not at all heavy or overpowering”

The way to go imo

Katie59

M0nica

There is a huge difference between schemes like Red Tractor and supermarket inspections that are mainly focussed on measures that make sure the food we buy is safe to eat and achieves minimum acceptable animal welfare standards and organic or PfL standards which are aimed at optimal animal centred welfare standards based on the animal's natural behaviour and farming practices aimed at putting more back into the soil than is taken out.

That is blatantly untrue, inspections cover every aspect of animal care and food safety.
To say they are not is an extremist stand, the UK has the highest welfare standards of any country, those that choose to buy organic should realize that a large quantity is imported where standards are uncertain.

Mine isn’t - I think the best thing is to source your meat. - then you can be sure if it’s provenance.

Farmer talking about his pigs

“Pigs are smart animals: we all know that. They’re also playful, sociable and mischievous. They follow powerful natural instincts that drive them to rootle, wallow, run, bask and nest. And if they’re denied the ability to do these things they become stressed, anxious and aggressive.
our favoured breed is an Gloucester Old Spot x Saddleback pig. These are both native breeds that thrive in the conditions we have down in the West Country. They live outdoors all year, with access to pig arks so they can shelter from the rain and sun.

Living outdoors is obviously vital for the well being of these intelligent creatures, but it’s also vital for the production of top-quality pork. Muscles that have had plenty of active exercise produce flavoursome meat with great texture. And the thick skins that the pigs develop to withstand chilly weather translate into excellent crackling. In industrial systems, pigs are routinely given antibiotics to fend off diseases that are spread due to the high density of the population. This never happens with our organic, outdoor pigs – their lifestyle gives them effective natural immune systems, and their diet of grass, hay and concentrated food helps them grow at the rate nature intended.“

Plenty of framers make their living from organic farming. That is why the Soil Association is such a thriving organisation and the Pasture for Life initiative has grown so fast.

Are you an advocate for industrial farming Katie59 or are you ayou in the farming industry.

It’s very hard to make a living out of organic production, so many farmers who try it, either go bankrupt or change back to conventional. The yields are much lower and any disease, weed or pest outbreak in animals or crops are much more difficult to control.

If you do grow a good organic crop marketing is a problem, not just for the farmer but the wholesaler too because getting consistent supply is difficult or impossible so the whole system breaks down. That’s why most have farm shops or box schemes, with less than 3% of food sales everything is so inefficient, overheads overtake output.

M0nica

There is a huge difference between schemes like Red Tractor and supermarket inspections that are mainly focussed on measures that make sure the food we buy is safe to eat and achieves minimum acceptable animal welfare standards and organic or PfL standards which are aimed at optimal animal centred welfare standards based on the animal's natural behaviour and farming practices aimed at putting more back into the soil than is taken out.

That is blatantly untrue, inspections cover every aspect of animal care and food safety.
To say they are not is an extremist stand, the UK has the highest welfare standards of any country, those that choose to buy organic should realize that a large quantity is imported where standards are uncertain.

I've just got through the Easter 'invasion' - and cooking marathon. I cook for family members - carnivores, veggies, vegans, pescatarians - and those with various allergies - quite complicated.

Of course, it's much easier, now, if they all visit at once, to just cook vegan, then everything is simple and safe for all the kids flying about the place. Meat, fish, egg or dairy eaters don't have to be offered those things.

The kids (and adults) are now far more environmentally aware - really worried, too, about how things are progressing (or not). Even the meat eaters have easily given up beef and lamb - the worst two meats for production seriously harming the planet.

Still, I keep chocolate eggs safely stashed away to be taken home on leaving - too complicated. Good vegan chocolate is so expensive - (why?) - and those who allow dairy prefer the 'normal' ones.

There is a huge difference between schemes like Red Tractor and supermarket inspections that are mainly focussed on measures that make sure the food we buy is safe to eat and achieves minimum acceptable animal welfare standards and organic or PfL standards which are aimed at optimal animal centred welfare standards based on the animal's natural behaviour and farming practices aimed at putting more back into the soil than is taken out.

An example of how chickens are produced in this system

Pasted from farmers web site

“Our Hubbard 57 chickens are 100% organic. Under the current Soil Association standards, chicks can be taken from a conventional system providing they are less than 3 days old and reared organically to 70 days. We wanted to go one step further to stick to our ethos in supporting other organic producers, so we source our chicks from an organic breeding flock meaning they are certified from birth. We never use antibiotics on our chickens because our organic farming system provides a natural environment for our birds to thrive without the need for preventative medication: room to roam, a naturally foraged balanced diet, clean water and high hygiene standards.

Outdoors we create natural shade with foraged twigs and branches from the surrounding trees and hedges, which also provide protection from birds of prey. Their favourite activities are chasing flies and having natural dust baths in the dirt. When the birds are housed in the evening to protect them from predators, they have perches to naturally roost on and straw bedding to rummage in. Coloured balls and old CDs hang from the ceiling, and the chicks love to chase the light that is reflected across the shed. The chickens are grown slowly for approximately 70 days. In intensive systems, which rely heavily on genetic breeding and antibiotics, birds are ready at just 35 days. We believe the slow approach is better for the welfare of our birds, and results in the delicious flavour you can try for yourself. “

They have information like this on all the meat they produce.

There is a hierarchy of animal welfare labels, so if animal welfare is a priority then you can’t do better at the moment, then, organic free range grass fed from a small producer.

I realise that this isn’t within everyone’s budget, but if you are able to buy such meat that is the way to go.

You benefit from knowing that you are ensuring the best possible life and death for the animal, as well as superb meat, which is superior in every way.

Katie59

M0nica

Katie59 So it has absolutely nothing to do with restoraive farming that aims at putting the welfare of the animals and restoring the soil at the centre of farming methods, just government gobbledgook used to hide indusrial farming behind a screen of greenwsh.

Animal welfare is well taken care of with Red Tractor and Supermarket inspections, anyone proved to be breaking rules either get fined, jailed or looses the contract.

As I said Environmental enhancements, everything is micro managed now, rotations, fertilizer, chemicals, wildlife provision and I almost forgot, food production too.

Chemicals and fertilizers aren't an important facet of Sustainable Farming, I don't believe.

Katie59

M0nica

What is ' a sustainable practice and consolidation'?

Consolidation has meant because of cheap food small farmers have not been able to make a living and the land has been taken over by larger units.

More “Sustainable” because DEFRA require land to be used for environmental enhancements

Sustainable, I believe, means managing the soil and the grazing animals so that the soil is regenerated - better ecology and farm profitabilitythrough ecosystem stability ( water, soil, wild habitat) - resilient not stressed land.

Consolidation - small farmers working together on issues, sharing equipment, and/or their land - cooperating on crops and pastures.

I would come under the 3% I guess - I buy from the farmer.