And the next prime Minister will be………

blog.hubspot.com/marketing/common-logical-fallacies#:~:text=Logical%20fallacies%20are%20deceptive%20or%20false%20arguments%20that

I read this online today. I thought we could all have fun spotting when each one pops up on Gransnet.

Number 7, I think.

GrannyRose15

So, you don't think trickle down works? Presumably you think the poor now are as poor as our Victorian ancestors were.

It's not 'us', who thinks it, GR15. It's those academics who have closely examined the data and have come to the conclusion that 'trickle down' has little or no effect on poverty.

I can actually 'see' the reasoning behind your statement about our Victorian ancestors, but if you think that the fact that there is more money for everyone 100+ years later has anything to do with trickle down I have a bridge you might be interested in buying....

MaizieD

I can actually 'see' the reasoning behind your statement about our Victorian ancestors, but if you think that the fact that there is more money for everyone 100+ years later has anything to do with trickle down I have a bridge you might be interested in buying.... grin

... neither does it take account of the gradual organisation of the working class (including children) into a force that your Josiah Bounderbys up at t'mill in yon Coketown were ultimately forced to acknowledge Not so much the largesse of 'trickle-down, more like the power of our unified ancestors who'd had enough of starvation and poverty!

Trickle down is not how people became less poor.

www.economicsonline.co.uk/definitions/trickle-down-economics-why-it-only-works-in-theory.html/

www.investopedia.com/terms/t/trickledowntheory.asp

www.liverpool.ac.uk/heseltine-institute/blog/trickle-down-economics-doesnt-work/

So many pages of articles from accredited sources on Google to explain why trickle down doesn't work, that it amazes me that any government could think it would. let alone any private citizens, who are generally better informed than government ministers.

it amazes me that any government could think it would. let alone any private citizens, who are generally better informed than government

It amazes me, MOnica, that there is a whole swathe of grown up people, notably think tanks such as the IEA and the Adam Smith Institute, and many tory MPs and their acolytes, who seem utterly convinced that trickle down works and who sell it like fury to the general public.

Either they really do believe it on an intellectual level, or they are deliberately using the concept to blind the public to the fact that the wealthy are getting ever wealthier at the expense of the poor.

GrannyRose I wonder if the poor are less poor because of trades unions? Checkout the Tolpuddle Martyrs.

*MaizieD' I go for John Maynard Keynes explanation:
Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back

Of curse, Keynes, himself, is now a defunct economist, but in this case I think his comments have stood the test of time.

M0nica

*MaizieD' I go for John Maynard Keynes explanation:
Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back

Of curse, Keynes, himself, is now a defunct economist, but in this case I think his comments have stood the test of time.

He did rather make himself a hostage to fortune by writing that, though, didn't he?

Keynes has been 'defunct' since the 1970s. Only now is he getting a bit of a revival...

I doubt that any effective economist's theory ever becomes completely defunct. Some will go into the next theory or, if that is a swing to an opposite, the one after that. Keynes made many good points, but no theorist is God, after all.

I am with those who cannot believe that others think the trickle-down theory will work. In fact, I don't think they do. What I think they believe in is masters and slaves. They think the slaves will be grateful for what they are "given" if the masters are allowed the riches of the world. And, of course, they think they are part of the "master" group.

It's quite horrifying.

Keynes isn’t and has never been defunct, theories are developed and changed with time. Much of what is considered “new” and relevant in economic theory can trace its roots back to the founding fathers.

DaisyAnne

I am with those who cannot believe that others think the trickle-down theory will work. In fact, I don't think they do. What I think they believe in is masters and slaves. They think the slaves will be grateful for what they are "given" if the masters are allowed the riches of the world. And, of course, they think they are part of the "master" group.

I'm pre-occupied with the mind-set of the electorate, particularly that section of it that is impoverished yet consistently votes for a party that increases such impoverishment. There appear to be, in the main, two divergent groups.

One group appears to believe that the 'rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate' is the natural order of things, and that any attempt to interfere with the 'rich' man is asking for trouble because he will up sticks and take his wealth - the trickle-down from which the poor man relies - and find another castle in a more lucrative location.

Then there are John Steinbeck's 'temporarily-embarrassed-millionaires', who think the wealth is there for the taking but the only reason they can't get at it is because of those blasted individuals who insist on a more equitable society for everyone.

There's quite a lot of references to "magic money trees" from both groups, but neither appear to understand how an economy functions, or why it functions the way it does.

It's all a bit depressing.

... a disaster, whoever they are!

Excellent post, @Dickens , thank you. But yes, depressing! The more so as I get older…..

I just cannot believe that the same MPs who ousted Boris are now suggesting that he comes back.

Whitewavemark2

If it goes to the members - Mordaunt.

If it is just MPs - Sunak.

However, I do think that Mordaunt will be the leader that most MPs can unite around.

She seems capable of taking advice and considering others' views when in power which would be a pleasant change. At least we wouldn't have two amateurs setting a mini-budget without any professional advice or assessment.

I think it will be Rishi , but I'm not entirely happy about that. I think he will be very competent , but I'm not a Tory supporter , and feel that the longer the party is in power, the worse things will get for the more vulnerable in society , and our NHS will be destroyed . We in the North willbnever see levelling up .Rishi will be popular at the next election .

A GE is needed now,we are sick of crazy tory looney party.

Rishi might be the best of a bad (tory)bunch.at least he seems to like dishing out money.

Of course we do not specifically elect a PM, but s/he is part of the package the electorate choose. We have certainly not chosen this package of garbage and a GE is the only honourable way forward. But the Tories of course have no honour and merely want to stay in power. They are supported by big business and most of the press, so the belief that they are the 'proper' party of government runs deep. I just hope the electorate wake up and that we all have long enough memories to vote Labour at the next election. Not that they are perfect, but our NHS, pensions and benefits are at least higher on their list of priorities - and I don't think they tell as many lies, for telling lies has become a habit with the Tories and nothing they say can be trusted. As for Braverman - oh dear. It's alarming that a fascist like that ever got elected to parliament in the first place and I'm tempted to conclude that if she were white she wouldn't want to support those cruel, right-wing policies for fear of being called racist!

What I don’t understand are the people that regard Johnson as their cuddly pal; one of them. Love him for his faults ( of which there are many). Rory Stewart ( yes I know I bang on about him but he talks such sense) says he went to one Bullington Club meeting and never went again because it was so vile. And yet working people are idolising a man who belonged to a group that used to burn banknotes in front of the poor.

Those wanting a general election at this time are mad. Everyone has other things to worry about with the run up to Christmas and all the other problems they have at this time. Oh and by the way....many Joe and Jane Bloggs are actually saying 'bring back Boris'. I actually like Penny Mordaunt....she has a way about her...strength of character. She has great leadership qualities.

Hey, Allsorts! - the leader of the opposition is SUPPOSED to harass the PM! Being Prime Minister is not for the faint-hearted and if anyone bullied Truss it was her own cronies. It was SHE who let down Kwarteng, not the other way around - she set him up to fall by saying one of the decisions was his alone. When I heard that, on Sunday 2nd on the BBC I knew his card was marked. And just HOW MUCH OF A MESS do the Tories have to make before we give Labour a chance? As for Boris loving his country - come on! Boris loves only Boris, and it makes me, quite frankly, terrified to hear that people are still taken in by this narcissistic poser that got us in this mess in the first place by lying and getting rid of all the able people that might not support him. A General Election is the only fair way forward -if this unbelievable shower of s* does not convince everyone, how bad does it have to get?!

That's strange, Theoddbird. Johnson called a GE for December in 2019 and got a landslide victory....

cc

I just cannot believe that the same MPs who ousted Boris are now suggesting that he comes back.

It does beggar belief - or does it?

When your job depends entirely on your party staying in power and the man you initially thought was going to destroy it but turns out to be popular among the voters and party members (or sufficient numbers of them)... well, you know - a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do...

When under threat of extinction, the Tory party will rally and unite, under the guise, naturally, of doing what is "right for our country" and there will be lots of "delivering" of this, that and the other.

Oh!, poor things; those "difficult decisions" that will have to be taken to stabilise the economy (none of which of course will financially impact those that make them).

Trickle down is clearly nonsense from all the academic studies. It's peddled by the Right to fog the voters. The financial markets are clearly worried about a Johnson come back. If the Tories choose him they will be responsible for increased mortgage costs, a weaker pound, pension fund risks and more. Sunak is economically competent. Our best hope is that Tory MPs do not support Johnson's bid to be on the ballot otherwise there is a real possibility that geriatric, muddle-headed or stupid Tory party members will elect Johnson in which case God help us all. I would prefer a General Election.