£18bn cuts to public services

"Economic growth accompanied by worsening social outcomes is not success. It's failure." Jacinta Ardern.

Oldnproud

I'm not an economist, but I imagine that our country's economy loses more through the spending (abroad) of the wealthy than it does through the spending of the poorest, whose meagre income, even if it comes from benefits, is likely to go straight back into the domestic economy from which it came in the first place. A form of financial recycling.

Is that right?

I think it's what economists call 'the marginal propensity to spend'. In other words, the wealthy don't spend as much of any extra they get as they tend to hoard their wealth, whereas the 'poor' do spend it, all of it, because they need it to live on.. And yes, it goes back to circulate in the domestic economy. That was one of the rationales for welfare benefits, it kept at least some money circulating in the economy. I don't think you have to be an economist to work that out, it's just common sense.

Katie59

Economic competence has not been high on polititians achievements for many years and certainly not now. Don’t blame the wealthy we all spend money abroad, the import/export gap is very large everyone is guilty.

Oh it isn’t blaming the wealthy, but research has shown that an economy grows quicker if the poor/ middle band of earners have extra cash the economy grows more quickly.

Economic competence has not been high on polititians achievements for many years and certainly not now. Don’t blame the wealthy we all spend money abroad, the import/export gap is very large everyone is guilty.

Oldnproud

I'm not an economist, but I imagine that our country's economy loses more through the spending (abroad) of the wealthy than it does through the spending of the poorest, whose meagre income, even if it comes from benefits, is likely to go straight back into the domestic economy from which it came in the first place. A form of financial recycling.

Is that right?

Yes I’m sure that’s right. Well at least economists argue that this is the case

That's my understanding, too, Oldnproud. And I have no qualifications in economics!

I'm not an economist, but I imagine that our country's economy loses more through the spending (abroad) of the wealthy than it does through the spending of the poorest, whose meagre income, even if it comes from benefits, is likely to go straight back into the domestic economy from which it came in the first place. A form of financial recycling.

Is that right?

Snap?

Katie59

It doesn’t really matter wether spending precedes taxation, the money goes round in circles. If at he end of the year taxation has not equaled spending plus repayments more has to be borrowed to fill the gap. The UK has not reduced it borrowing for 20 yrs and I don’t expect Truss to achieve a reduction in 2 yrs.

The proceeds of taxation or spending does get distributed to the majority, that does not mean that everyone gets all they need.

It does matter, because politicians use the excuse that 'we don't get enough from taxation', to cut public services, and use the 'spending' of tax as a measure of a party's economic competence. This seriously affects the political choices that voters make.

Katie59

It doesn’t really matter wether spending precedes taxation, the money goes round in circles. If at he end of the year taxation has not equaled spending plus repayments more has to be borrowed to fill the gap. The UK has not reduced it borrowing for 20 yrs and I don’t expect Truss to achieve a reduction in 2 yrs.

The proceeds of taxation or spending does get distributed to the majority, that does not mean that everyone gets all they need.

It does really, because if a government tried to base its spending on tax revenue, it would be unable to plan ahead because tax revenue varies from year to year.

That is why spending is raised from the bond market, and not tax, the government has control of the income, and therefore planning is easier.

It doesn’t really matter wether spending precedes taxation, the money goes round in circles. If at he end of the year taxation has not equaled spending plus repayments more has to be borrowed to fill the gap. The UK has not reduced it borrowing for 20 yrs and I don’t expect Truss to achieve a reduction in 2 yrs.

The proceeds of taxation or spending does get distributed to the majority, that does not mean that everyone gets all they need.

Taxes originated to allow kings and chiefs to raise armies and wage war while maintaining the elite's lifestyle with serfs or slaves. Now within a democracy, the population is supposed to elect governments to distribute the country's wealth fairly to benefit the majority, and not to wage political wars or pursue irrational economic theories. Why do the turkeys among us keep voting for Christmas?

growstuff

DaisyAnne

MaizieD

You have probably done some or all of those things yourself we all do it and so it perpetuates discrimination.



Speak for yourself, Katie59.

You have Maizie. You have stereotyped those who do not automatically agree with the views MMT provides as being in some way "less than".

^Well, if people won't challenge the lie that taxation funds spending; or even give the idea a bit of consideration, what else do you expect?^

But DaisyAnne it is a fact that taxation doesn't fund spending. Governments always spend then tax the money back to the Treasury, if it's the right time to take money out of circulation.

It is your "fact" then growstuff. Some people believe that the bread and wine changing into the body and blood of Christ during communion is a fact. However, believing opinions are facts does not make them so.

I am happy for you to believe your view is a true one. I am also very relaxed about others believing that transubstantiation is a "truth". However, this doesn't mean the group you form from those who don't agree, your "others", are less perceptive or less truthful than other people. They are certainly not responsible for all that is going wrong as Maizie's post suggested. That was a very "if only others believed" post.

You are entitled to your opinion. This accountancy wheeze is just that, an opinion. It may even be a way of framing a complex system to make it more understandable. It is not a truth.

In any circumstances, suggesting others are "less than" because they don't share your view, culture, or whatever, is bigoted thinking. A failure to which we can all be open. This need, to have all agree to your "truth" falls into that category.

“How would you organise that?”

You need an NHS number to get treated.
I’ve seen it, I was in A&E with a friend a few weeks ago, a foreign worker came in with an injured hand, his companion had to arrange payment before he was treated, probably the company he was working for paid.

bear1

we must stop those who were not born here of became citizens of the UK havig free health treatment we have to become like the majority of the world and charge them for all health care we would have to in their country stop people arriving here via the taxi service and being put up for free in hotels we could save millions a year and the NHS would get back millions from those who come here for the free holiday in a nhs hospital and get their ops done for free

In theory they don’t if they are not UK citizens and working, other migrants will get basic emergency treatment until their fate is decided.
As for legal migration it’s very difficult to get a visa to travel to the UK from a great many countries even as a tourist.

bear1

we must stop those who were not born here of became citizens of the UK havig free health treatment we have to become like the majority of the world and charge them for all health care we would have to in their country stop people arriving here via the taxi service and being put up for free in hotels we could save millions a year and the NHS would get back millions from those who come here for the free holiday in a nhs hospital and get their ops done for free

How would you organise that?

we must stop those who were not born here of became citizens of the UK havig free health treatment we have to become like the majority of the world and charge them for all health care we would have to in their country stop people arriving here via the taxi service and being put up for free in hotels we could save millions a year and the NHS would get back millions from those who come here for the free holiday in a nhs hospital and get their ops done for free

DaisyAnne

MaizieD

You have probably done some or all of those things yourself we all do it and so it perpetuates discrimination.



Speak for yourself, Katie59.

You have Maizie. You have stereotyped those who do not automatically agree with the views MMT provides as being in some way "less than".

^Well, if people won't challenge the lie that taxation funds spending; or even give the idea a bit of consideration, what else do you expect?^

But DaisyAnne it is a fact that taxation doesn't fund spending. Governments always spend then tax the money back to the Treasury, if it's the right time to take money out of circulation.

Katie59

I really do not worry half as much as many others in fact I’m very outgoing.

Am I the only one that recognizes passive discrimination is widespread. Inner city populations are largely either poor or migrant communities because the original people that are able have moved to the suburbs. Because it’s a “nicer” place to live they have schools, shops and restaurants there is no need to go into the city, so there is little mixing.

This is what has happened

They weren't that poor when I lived in South Kensington.

Katie59

No of course not, but srereotyping and discrimination will always happen, occasionally direct and violent, very often passive, within the minority there is some direct support and much more passive support. It’s true of many minority communities, I can think of at least 4 or 5 today, I’m not going to name them.

It should not happen but always will, the fact that some communities or groups do not follow the culture of the majority makes it more visible.

It’s not possible to legislate private opinions, those that are able move house, others avoid certain areas, or cross the road to avoid what they don’t like, send children to a “better” school. You have probably done some or all of those things yourself we all do it and so it perpetuates discrimination.

Errr ... no, I haven't - not to move away from ethnic minority neighbours anyway! I was born and brought up on Merseyside. It would have been difficult to move away from people with an Irish background.

PS. My daughter's partner has Sudanese/Yemeni immigrant parents. Should I steer clear of him?

Guess who? The likeness is staggering, !

Her mother came from Mauritius.

Katie59

I really do not worry half as much as many others in fact I’m very outgoing.

Am I the only one that recognizes passive discrimination is widespread. Inner city populations are largely either poor or migrant communities because the original people that are able have moved to the suburbs. Because it’s a “nicer” place to live they have schools, shops and restaurants there is no need to go into the city, so there is little mixing.

This is what has happened

Birds of a feather flock together

Not sure that it is discriminatory, we have a growing Hasidic Jewish Community in the borough, they keep themselves to themselves, do no harm.

We have one road nicknamed millionaires row nowadays where the houses have been demolished over my lifetime and bigger ones built, nothing under £1,500,000, they are not harming anyone.

Whitewavemark2

Braverman reminded me of the far right in the ITV programme/documentary highlighted in the Hope Not Hate programme.

She is disgusting. What the hell is wrong with her?

She an elitist kenyan.simple. her parents didn't mind coming to UK abandoning Kenya and setting to availing themselves of free education, up to university level/health/anything else going now did theye? Benefits come in ALL shapes and sizes, and her parents had not lived in UK long enough to have contributed anything meaningful towards all the services they were using, yet she bad mouths anyone needing benefits? She's not as intelligent as she makes out is she? If she wasn't blinded by hate and scorn she may just realise what she's yelling about is-herself!

I really do not worry half as much as many others in fact I’m very outgoing.

Am I the only one that recognizes passive discrimination is widespread. Inner city populations are largely either poor or migrant communities because the original people that are able have moved to the suburbs. Because it’s a “nicer” place to live they have schools, shops and restaurants there is no need to go into the city, so there is little mixing.

This is what has happened