Transphobic Bullying

Agreed, MissA.

VS there have been numerous points made on this thread, but they have been ignored.

People are not 'just saying bullies will be bullies'. They are saying that trying to bring everything down to a 'phobia' of some kind is counter-productive to an understanding of human dynamics, and that blaming adults for children's bullying is simplistic. Children may learn a lot from copying adults, but they are not entirely innocent - or if they are born as such they learn survival early on.

Whether or not they hear adults making 'trans slurs' (and I think it is far more likely that they learn those from one another and from online and social media) they learn their behaviour. Adults are hierarchical (schools most definitely are), they are competitive, judgemental and often quite unpleasant. They interact with one another in various ways, not all of which are setting the best example.

If you are looking for ways to prevent adults from being a bad influence on children, you are going to have to find ways of changing human nature, I'm afraid.

Obviously i dont agree with you Smileless

Bullies bully because they are bullies.

Its immaterial to them if a person is gay/stuck up/humourless/short sighted/miserable/butch/ or anything else.

They will weave their own narrative in order to cause trouble - hence "they looked at me funny".

doodledog I'm sorry if I haven't managed to address every comment

If people disagree with my concerns I don't feel it really productive to keep reiterating my disagreement more than I have already and try to explain what I am seeing having children in education still and working in education myself.

I am still as concerned as I was and will look for more productive ways to express them where some sort of progress might be achieved

The bit about ignoring comments was a tiny part of my post. Any comment on the rest of it?

Maybe later

That's fair enough vs these threads would soon fade away if everyone posting on them agreed with everyone else.

No, there are quite a few threads out there for people paddling along in the same boat that have been going for a very long time

This is a discussion thread but at the moment I've just run out of things to say and don't think it's productive to keep trying to "go round in circles" as someone else put it.

I do need to catch up on comments I've obviously missed but I'm not feeling well enough to do that now

It's an interesting discussion.
I hope it will carry on.

Thank you MissA

You're welcome.
Now have a rest and feel better soon.

Then you can come back and we can all disagree with you some more.

Lol! will do!

I think some of the misconceptions about bullying on this thread need addressing. Firstly it is not always about a child who doesn't fit in in some way. Any child can be bullied if they somehow attract the attention of a bully. One of my DSs was friendly with a girl the bully wanted as his girlfriend and that was enough. Secondly some bullying is in most schools and has even gained some degree of respectability. "Taxing" is the taking of money from a younger child by an older one (note the name, almost legitimising the action). Children tend to develop ways of coping with things and don't talk about it.

The language of bullying has developed over the years, but children use the same words they hear others use . But they are also fully aware when words become unacceptable and they use others. They may still carry the concepts behind the words but they know better than to use them. So racist language gave way to homophobic terms, referring to someone as "gay" a "puff"etc. I don't find it at all strange that young children are now using trans accusations to bully others. They will be fully aware that the subject is controversial and they will have picked up the language from adults and media sources. The question for the adults is having successfully stopped racist and homophobic language why would there be a problem dealing with slurs which demonise another section of society? It doesn't matter what you believe trans people to be surely no child should be bullied or made to feel inadequate because of their appearance or bullied because they are different.

That's precisely the point everybody has been making, and that is why there are already policies in place, both in schools, and in the legal system.
Hate crime is now illegal, as far as I know, and that covers all kinds of behaviours if the intention begins it is maliciously intended.

Intention behind.

As you say MissA that's precisely the point everybody has been making.

I agree, Glorianny, that no child should be bullied or made to feel inadequate because of their appearance or bullied because they are different.

However, I disagree that The question for the adults is having successfully stopped racist and homophobic language why would there be a problem dealing with slurs which demonise another section of society?

Other forms of bullying have not gone away or been dealt with successfully.

Callistemon21

I agree, Glorianny, that no child should be bullied or made to feel inadequate because of their appearance or bullied because they are different.

However, I disagree that The question for the adults is having successfully stopped racist and homophobic language why would there be a problem dealing with slurs which demonise another section of society?

Other forms of bullying have not gone away or been dealt with successfully.

I agree racism hasn't gone away Callistemon21 but I think many children and especially teenagers are conscious that there is language which is unacceptable in school and so they tend not to use it there (on the street is far different). The same applies to homophobic language. Having realised those words bring more trouble children gravitate towards things others might find more difficult to police. Hence trans language. The actual prejudice hasn't disappeared but the way it is verbalised has changed.
I think the animosity shown by some on these threads shows exactly why children think it's OK to use anti-trans language as slurs. It's based on exactly the same conditions as all prejudiced language has always been. Mostly it begins with "I've nothing against X people but they are always Z and Y ing" Something which appears so often on these threads.

Any child can be bullied if they somehow attract the attention of a bully
Precisely the point that has been made over and over again.

A point we can all agree on, at least.

Time to celebrate?

We should have a carnival, i reckon!

Smileless2012

As you say MissA that's precisely the point everybody has been making.

Quite.

And yes, Callistemon - 'old' forms of bullying have not gone away. Fashions change, is all, and I very much doubt that any of it is born of 'phobias'. Children are not likely to be phobic about gay people, transpeople or very much else, really. In my experience they are very accepting of difference on a day to day level. If when they are together they use words connected with difference as insults it is because (a) those words have power in their school or other social circle, and (b) because they see adults jockeying for position in various ways and learn that this is how people behave.

The reasons why some words have more power than others are various (eg 'the C word' is still seen as the greatest insult because it is about women's sexuality in a patriarchal society), but if children have to listen to lessons about 'LGBTQ+ issues' (as described by VS in her post of Tue 16-Aug-22 12:31:31) they will see that the terms used in them have power to exercise adults, and that could explain why they are being used just now.

If (as has been said over and over) people from all groups are seen as normal as opposed to 'special', the words will lose their power, just as many 'swear words' have done in the past, eg Bloody Hell is seen as relatively mild these days, but 'By Our Lady in Hell', where it came from, was considered extremely blasphemous at one time. Similarly, 'sod' as in 'Sod off' is another relatively mild insult, but when the word was more directly linked to sodomy, which was illegal, it was much stronger. Words do not have intrinsic power - they are given it by the people who use them.

Other forms of bullying have not gone away Glorianny. Chidren, particularly young teenagers, can be sensitive about all kinds of issues, including appearance.
It may seem unfounded or ridiculous to an adult but can have quite an impact on the victim.

X post, Doodledog