Transphobic Bullying

The way I have understood gender dysphoria, it is the feeling of being in the wrong body, so challenging gender norms may not fix that. And I'm starting to feel that we will be challenging gender norms for a long time to come no matter how hard we try

A feeling of being in the wrong body is a mental health issue as a person can only have the one body.
It is similar to those, very few, people who believe they should be blind or should have a limb amputated.
It's not something that should be immediately affirmed and treated as reality, other than accepting the person's feelings.

It definitely shouldn't be the case that absolutely anyone, child or adult, can simply say they are trans - possibly based on others' views of them - and thenceforth be treated as the opposite sex from the reality.
Yet this is what is happening in schools and elsewhere.

Indeed, Smileless.
My DS got a lot of bullying at school including homophobic insults. He told me, years later, that he dreaded to think how bad it would have been if they'd actually believed he was gay.

FarNorth

^The way I have understood gender dysphoria, it is the feeling of being in the wrong body, so challenging gender norms may not fix that. And I'm starting to feel that we will be challenging gender norms for a long time to come no matter how hard we try^

A feeling of being in the wrong body is a mental health issue as a person can only have the one body.
It is similar to those, very few, people who believe they should be blind or should have a limb amputated.
It's not something that should be immediately affirmed and treated as reality, other than accepting the person's feelings.

It definitely shouldn't be the case that absolutely anyone, child or adult, can simply say they are trans - possibly based on others' views of them - and thenceforth be treated as the opposite sex from the reality.
Yet this is what is happening in schools and elsewhere.

So how would you treat a child who refused to conform to gender norms, insisted. they were the opposite gender, refused to respond if spoken to as the gender they were rejecting and threatened to self harm if they were not given recognition. Don't bother to reply you would seek treatment for them, the waiting list for any assessment is about 4 years and lengthening. If you go to see your GP they will probably put the child on a list and tell you to cope as best you can. Meantime if the school actually refuses to comply with the child's request and the child does take their own life guess who will get the blame?

By the way gaslighting is often mentioned on GN. If anyone wants a classic example I advise them to follow the posts about my suggestion that Mollygo may feel her GD is being "overly influenced" It's text book stuff. You seldom get such a clear demonstration of how works.

That’s awful smilesless. I always feel sorry for gay children at secondary school, quite often they don’t know about their sexuality. But other children are quick to put a label on them.

By the way gaslighting is often mentioned on GN. If anyone wants a classic example I advise them to follow the posts about my suggestion that Mollygo may feel her GD is being "overly influenced" It's text book stuff. You seldom get such a clear demonstration of how works.

This is so true. Such a clear demonstration! Thank you for identifying what you did do clearly tri Glorianny. You made a statement that you couldn’t clarify and refused to answer it despite repeated requests, using strategies like saying . . . it isn’t happening.

It's awful isn't it FarNorth and still upsets me about my brother as it will upset you about your son.

In answer to your question to FarNorth Glorianny it would very much depend on the age of the child as to what may or may not be appropriate by way of a response.

One thing I would be sure to talk about would be the use of emotional blackmail in terms of threatening self harm, to get ones own way.

If the child is old enough to be able to identify and articulate feeling this way, they should be able to discuss the matter without resorting to threats if they don't get everything the way they want it to be.

Who would get the blame if a child is being bullied at school with transphobic slurs amongst other things, to the extent that they take their own life because the school failed to intervene for fear of also being labelled transphobic? The school having refused to comply with the child's and no doubt the parents request to do something about it.

Glorianny I certainly wouldn't try to make the child conform to gender norms.
If the school insisted they must conform, I'd find another school or remove the child from school altogether (assuming this was my child).
Of course, if the child's family insists on gender norms that child is in a very bad situation. However, they continue to be in a bad situation if they are affirmed as the opposite sex and coached towards medical intervention from puberty onwards.

I have seen numerous accounts of 'trans' children, well-known ones being Jackie Green, Kai Shappley & Jazz Jennings.
All the accounts are based on stereotypes / gender norms.
Have you seen any that are not based on that?

I was assuming a primary age child, in my answer.
I also agree with Smileless.

Mollygo

By the way gaslighting is often mentioned on GN. If anyone wants a classic example I advise them to follow the posts about my suggestion that Mollygo may feel her GD is being "overly influenced" It's text book stuff. You seldom get such a clear demonstration of how works.

This is so true. Such a clear demonstration! Thank you for identifying what you did do clearly tri Glorianny. You made a statement that you couldn’t clarify and refused to answer it despite repeated requests, using strategies like saying . . . it isn’t happening.

Definition of Gaslighting-
Gaslighting is psychological manipulation that makes the recipient question their feelings, instincts, and even their sanity. It is one of the worst forms of dirty fighting, and it is used by both men and women. Gaslighting includes a variety of techniques, such as:
Pretending not to understand when you do.

I in order to defend my self have refused to answer the repeated demands to explain something which is easily understood. Google the words or use a dictionary. Still now there is an attempt to turn the tables and blame me. True Gaslighting!

FarNorth

Glorianny I certainly wouldn't try to make the child conform to gender norms.
If the school insisted they must conform, I'd find another school or remove the child from school altogether (assuming this was my child).
Of course, if the child's family insists on gender norms that child is in a very bad situation. However, they continue to be in a bad situation if they are affirmed as the opposite sex and coached towards medical intervention from puberty onwards.

I have seen numerous accounts of 'trans' children, well-known ones being Jackie Green, Kai Shappley & Jazz Jennings.
All the accounts are based on stereotypes / gender norms.
Have you seen any that are not based on that?

Mmm sorry that's evasion FarNorth
Someone has to deal with the children. The school simply tries to deal with a problem which is society's blaming them because they do their best to cope isn't helping. It's simply avoiding the problem because it is so difficult to deal with.

Gaslighting…makes the recipient question their feelings, instincts and even their sanity.

Now if someone has documentary proof of bullying actions, has the truth of those actions verified by disinterested people and is then told they’ve exaggerated or even made it all up, just to get attention, that’s gaslighting isn’t it.

Just what Gloriany has done to Mollygo on this thread?

Mollygo

In that case VS I hope you refrain from making any untrue or unfair comments about me.

Of course

FarNorth

^The way I have understood gender dysphoria, it is the feeling of being in the wrong body, so challenging gender norms may not fix that. And I'm starting to feel that we will be challenging gender norms for a long time to come no matter how hard we try^

A feeling of being in the wrong body is a mental health issue as a person can only have the one body.
It is similar to those, very few, people who believe they should be blind or should have a limb amputated.
It's not something that should be immediately affirmed and treated as reality, other than accepting the person's feelings.

It definitely shouldn't be the case that absolutely anyone, child or adult, can simply say they are trans - possibly based on others' views of them - and thenceforth be treated as the opposite sex from the reality.
Yet this is what is happening in schools and elsewhere.

I don't know how you can be so sure, biology is complex and research has already shown differences... there may also be more to be discovered.

This is why my stance is as it is

But we are straying away from the topic aren't we

If children are being bullied using transphibic slurs for simply not conforming tobgender norms...

Even if you don't want to discuss the wider implications of how the way things are discussed in public in society impacts young minds....

That has roots in sexism too, something every feminist would be concerned about.

I definitely do not, by word or deed, want to encourage any form of sexism

Lathyrus

Gaslighting…makes the recipient question their feelings, instincts and even their sanity.

Now if someone has documentary proof of bullying actions, has the truth of those actions verified by disinterested people and is then told they’ve exaggerated or even made it all up, just to get attention, that’s gaslighting isn’t it.

Just what Gloriany has done to Mollygo on this thread?

Thank you Lathyrus. Yes indeed, exactly.

Incidentally Glorianny, I asked you to define what you meant by overly influenced in the given circumstance , not to give me a Google definition of the term. Obviously you can’t do that, so why make the accusation?

I'm not comfortable with the way glorianny is being hounded

At one point, she wasn't here and was asked the same question, I think 4 times while acknowledging she wasnt here.

I think there is a better way to get an answer from someone

Well I asked her a question this morning and she has decided not to answer it, which is her privilege.

I did think about asking it again, but decided

a there wouldn’t be much point
b it might look a bit like hounding

so I moved on to a different comment she’d made and asked about that

I’m not sure how that’s hounding

IVe been out all day.

We don't know how many children are being bullied because they don't conform to gender norms do we. Bullies like to bully, any excuse will do and if there isn't an obvious one they'll find one even if it means making one up.

When I was at school 60's to 70's girls had short hair, wore trousers, played football and rugby, did wood work and metal work. Boys played hockey and did domestic science. I really don't understand why there's so much talk 5 decades later about gender norms and whether or not they're being conformed too.

Please, don't let this thread develop in the same way as those infernal eternal threads about abusive mothers.

Treelover

dear Doodledog Keep up the good work and to FarNorth and others.. It's necessary. The trans lobby is massive and powerful. It still has the ear and obedience of the authorities.
I've seen you try to reason with Violetsky before and admire your patience. She will, so innocently, play every card in the pack.

Thank you Treelover.

Doodledog I think it’s your turn in the barrel ?
Yes, MerylStreep. It would seem so.

VS
So I think educating about what gender dysphoria is is the right thing to do, and educating about different beliefs held about that is the right thing to do too. Children should be allowed to make their own minds up, not told what to think or believe. Yet all this is delicate. A person with gender dysphoria may be struggling with mental health and so may anyone who is LGBTQ. That may also be combined with SEN needs or other difficulties in life. So all conversation needs to be done carefully and respectfully. Children need more awareness of being inclusive and the policies they are expected to follow.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition, gender dysphoria prevalence accounts for 0.005–0.014% of the population for biological males and 0.002–0.003% for biological females. In both Japan and Poland, the prevalence of gender dysphoria is higher in biological females.

With such a tiny number of affected children, it is difficult to understand why there should be whole-school policies at all. IMO there should absolutely be anti-bullying policies and they should cover children with any and all 'differences', as well as those without them. All children are important, and inclusivity includes trans children (not all of whom have dysphoria) but also children with other things that mark them out as possible victims. Fat kids, thin ones, ones with glasses, ones with disabilities, different religions, different parents, different housing, clever ones, less clever ones and the ones disliked by the ringleaders should all have equal status, as do those with no distinguishing features, and it's perhaps understandable that, as has been suggested, if they see special policies, lessons and attention given to such a small number of children they might resent it.

What I would prefer to see is acceptance, not special treatment, so any trans children are just that - not someone who needs to be singled out, with others punished for 'misgendering' them simply for forgetting which pronoun to use when discussing them with others.

When soaps and TV dramas started to have gay characters, for instance, the storylines were always about their gayness - usually with trauma and angst thrown in. Now, their sexuality is incidental. They are the vicar, the barman, the policeman or the doctor, and are not singled out for being 'different', and their sexuality is just a part of that, in the same way as the straight characters. I think that that approach would be much better than what seems to be one that emphasises the differences between children struggling with 'gender identity' and the rest.

Time it hit the dust. It is becoming just a dingdong about personalities, not a discussion at all.

Should have added some boys had long hair and pierced ears, studs only like the girls which had to be removed during sports lessons.

Yes, Doodledog It is ironic that almost all trans people just want to blend in and be invisible, but the robust campaigning has made them stand out centre stage in the spotlight - the most uncomfortable and vulnerable place of all, far more so than their pre-campaign position.

Smileless2012

We don't know how many children are being bullied because they don't conform to gender norms do we. Bullies like to bully, any excuse will do and if there isn't an obvious one they'll find one even if it means making one up.

When I was at school 60's to 70's girls had short hair, wore trousers, played football and rugby, did wood work and metal work. Boys played hockey and did domestic science. I really don't understand why there's so much talk 5 decades later about gender norms and whether or not they're being conformed too.

Yes we do as there are whole government policies about it which I posted

eazybee

Please, don't let this thread develop in the same way as those infernal eternal threads about abusive mothers.

Interesting comment, what do you mean?