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Elizabeth I may have been non-binary, claims Shakespeare’s Globe

(386 Posts)
GagaJo Sat 13-Aug-22 12:52:13

“I know I have the body but of a weak and feeble woman,” Elizabeth I once said to rally her troops to face the Spanish Armada, “but I have the heart and stomach of a king”.

And was a non-binary person too, according to academics working for Shakespeare’s Globe, who have cast doubt on the gender identity of one of England’s greatest queens.

Elizabeth I has been presented as possibly non-binary in an essay published by the theatre, which refers to the female monarch with the gender-neutral “they/them” pronouns.

The essay was written by a “transgender awareness trainer” in defence of the Globe’s decision to stage a new play featuring a non-binary Joan of Arc, but both the play and the essay have raised concerns that famous females are being written out of history.

The essay claims: “Elizabeth I… described themself regularly in speeches as ‘king’, ‘queen’ and ‘prince’, choosing strategically to emphasise their female identity or their male monarchical role at different points.”

This appears to reference the most famous speech attributed to Elizabeth, her 1588 address at Tilbury in which she braced the nation for battle with the Spanish, saying she had the “heart and stomach of king” and “a king of England too”.

‘Historical women adopted a male identity’
The essay on the Shakespeare’s Globe website, written by Dr Kit Heyam, suggests that historical women were not only rebels for performing what were considered typically male tasks, but also in some sense adopted a male identity.

Dr Hayem writes in regard to Elizabeth I as an armour-wearing military leader: “Inhabiting that social role and dressing in the clothes associated with it, while living and working among men, may not just have felt like gendered defiance: it may have had a profound impact on their sense of self.”

The essay defends Shakespeare’s Globe announcing a new play titled I, Joan, in which Joan of Arc is represented as non-binary. The teenage warrior, famed for leading the French against the English in the 100 Years War despite being a woman in a patriarchal society, has been given the pronouns “they/them” in Globe promotional material for the production.

Dr Hayem’s essay for the theatre argues that while historians have stated that Joan wore male armour out of “practicality” during her campings, “they” may have had “deeper motivations” related to “their” identity.

Author JK Rowling signalled her bemusement that Shakespeare’s Globe would be portraying Joan of Arc as non-binary by liking a Twitter post which read: “Coming next: Napoleon was a woman because he was defeated at Waterloo.”

‘Famous females will be written out of history’
Feminist thinkers have raised concerns that casting doubts on the womanhood of prominent women because they defied gender norms, and did supposedly “manly” things, will effectively write many famous females out of history.

Philosopher Dr Jane Clare Jones said: “This is a really great example of the inherent gender conservatism in gender identity ideology. Traditional gender conservatism says that men must do ‘manly’ things, and women must do ‘womanly’ things.

“Gender identity ideology reverses that and then we end up with the idea that anyone who does ‘manly’ things must be a man, and anyone who does ‘womanly’ things must be a woman.

“This is how we end up in a situation in which historical women who have performed traditionally ‘masculine’ roles end up being re-categorised as ‘trans men’ or ‘non-binary’ or ‘not-women’ in some way.

“This is a really regressive message to be sending out, especially to young women.”

‘A regressive ideology’
Joan Smith, author of the feminist volume Misogynies, said: “Women and girls are entitled to reject stereotypes without losing our sex.

“We didn’t have enough female role models to start with, we have spent decades rediscovering women artists, authors, leaders. And now a regressive ideology is trying to take them away.”

Born in 1533, Elizabeth I became England’s longest-serving female monarch until Queen Victoria, and was famed for overseeing the emergence of the country as an international power during her 44-year reign.

Named the Virgin Queen, she never married or had children despite this being the expectations of her contemporaries.

uk.news.yahoo.com/elizabeth-may-non-binary-claims-171338852.html

Rosie51 Mon 15-Aug-22 00:20:21

GagaJo

So now you're linking trans supporters with MRAs?

That just destroys your credibility Rosie51. Just retreating back into insults again. Modus operandi.

Sometimes it's very hard to differentiate between them. I don't believe you've ever credited me with any credibility GagaJo so I shan't lose any sleep. So for the purpose of discussion just remove MRAs from my post and consider my point why do TRAs always refer to the difference between male and female brains while refuting the difference between male and female bodies (especially after puberty) when it comes to transwomen (male bodies) competing against women (female bodies) in sports?
I'm interested in your response to this question.

GagaJo Sun 14-Aug-22 23:59:39

So now you're linking trans supporters with MRAs?

That just destroys your credibility Rosie51. Just retreating back into insults again. Modus operandi.

GagaJo Sun 14-Aug-22 23:57:36

Yes, I appreciate that Galaxy. I just did a quick Google.

That was just a snapshot of stuff I read. Personally, I think trans / intersex are linked. But I'm not going to stuff my opinion down anyone's throat.

I regret that I'm so old that I won't be around to see how these issues grow and develop within the next 50 or so years.

Rosie51 Sun 14-Aug-22 23:57:22

Why do TRAs or MRAs always refer to the difference between male and female brains while refuting the difference between male and female bodies (especially after puberty) when it comes to transwomen (male bodies) competing against women (female bodies) in sports?

Galaxy Sun 14-Aug-22 23:53:10

The science on this is quite contradictory gagajo, the debates on differences between Male and females brains have been going on for decades if not longer.

Smileless2012 Sun 14-Aug-22 23:50:08

I think Bess was wealthier Deedaa.

Rosie51 Sun 14-Aug-22 23:49:41

GagaJo

Rosie51

Galaxy

Well that's interesting as the last research I saw didnt say that at all. Would you be able to describe what the differences are between Male and female brains.

Quite clearly female brains are pink and male brains are blue, do keep up Galaxy grin It's not only female bodies that are 'inferior men's bodies' our brains are too.

Glad to hear you know more than a range of scientists who specialise in the area.

Sarcasm/irony completely lost on you? Never mind. One thing I'm certain of is that Queen, King and Princess are nouns not pronouns, but the other TRA in education doesn't know that, very worrying!!

GagaJo Sun 14-Aug-22 23:44:20

Rosie51

Galaxy

Well that's interesting as the last research I saw didnt say that at all. Would you be able to describe what the differences are between Male and female brains.

Quite clearly female brains are pink and male brains are blue, do keep up Galaxy grin It's not only female bodies that are 'inferior men's bodies' our brains are too.

Glad to hear you know more than a range of scientists who specialise in the area.

Galaxy Sun 14-Aug-22 23:42:03

But you seem to believe that there are some differences between Male and female brains, as far as I know there are some minor differences but there is more commonality than difference. And obviously there is some difficulty around the impact nuture has, for example the changes that occur in the brains of taxi drivers.

Deedaa Sun 14-Aug-22 23:32:43

I think the difference between Bess of Hardwick and Elizabeth I is that Elizabeth was the monarch. Bess was a powerful woman, but not as powerful as Elizabeth.

Galaxy Sun 14-Aug-22 23:32:24

Actually even that article is clear they are not identical, its very vague and mentions treatment regimes which are now deemed to be questionable.

Rosie51 Sun 14-Aug-22 23:32:14

Galaxy

Well that's interesting as the last research I saw didnt say that at all. Would you be able to describe what the differences are between Male and female brains.

Quite clearly female brains are pink and male brains are blue, do keep up Galaxy grin It's not only female bodies that are 'inferior men's bodies' our brains are too.

GagaJo Sun 14-Aug-22 23:31:11

Galaxy

Well that's interesting as the last research I saw didnt say that at all. Would you be able to describe what the differences are between Male and female brains.

I'm an English teacher. Do you know?

Rosie51 Sun 14-Aug-22 23:29:12

Caleo

www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CBiologically%2C%20it's%20a%20spectrum%2C,labia%20that%20resemble%20a%20scrotum).

Biologists think sex is a spectrum

If sex is a spectrum how many different gametes do these scientists think there are? Every organism that reproduces by sexual reproduction relies on a large immotile gamete fusing with a small motile gamete. Traditionally we have called the organisms with the potential to produce small gametes 'male' and the organisms that have the potential to produce large gametes 'female'. Other than confusion with every other organism that uses sexual reproduction, there is no absolute reason to stick to these terms. That we can rename male and female if we so desire does not in any way contribute to the idea that a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 100th gamete is a fact. Sex as a category is only required to differentiate between those organisms that produce either large or small gametes. Some animals, such as earthworms, are hermaphroditic—they possess male and female sexual organs and can produce both sperm and eggs. They mate with other earthworms, however, to produce genetically diverse worms. Still only two gametes.

Galaxy Sun 14-Aug-22 23:25:10

Well that's interesting as the last research I saw didnt say that at all. Would you be able to describe what the differences are between Male and female brains.

GagaJo Sun 14-Aug-22 23:19:29

The brain is another biological marker of both sex and gender that presents with great diversity, further supporting the concept of a sex (and gender) spectrum.

In a study published May 2018 by the European Society of Endocrinology researchers discovered, “Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender.”

When MRI scans of 160 transgender youths were analyzed using a technique called diffusion tensor imaging, the brains of transgender boys’ resembled that of cisgender boys’, while the brains of transgender girls’ brains resembled the brains of cisgender girls’.

cadehildreth.com/gender-spectrum/

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

FarNorth Sun 14-Aug-22 22:59:11

If people with a DSD were the only ones claiming to be trans or non-binary, there'd be very little problem - but they aren't.

FarNorth Sun 14-Aug-22 22:55:57

Glorianny both those people were female women all their lives.
Other words mean other things so I'll stick to 'female' and 'women' when that's what I mean .

Rosie51 Sun 14-Aug-22 22:51:10

Glorianny

Galaxy

Sorry are you saying that those women who dont have children arent living a female life.

I'm comparing the life lived by Elizabeth 1 - childless, marriageless, but a life of power, with Bess of Hardwick who had many children, several marriages but who still managed to control many things and left her great house. If you don't like the word "female" feel free to replace it.

So somehow Elizabeth 1's life was 'lesser' than Bess of Hardwick's? Lots of women decide that marriage and/or children are not for them, it doesn't make them non-binary or lesser women. Goodness there are some women who regretfully don't get to make a choice, nature can be unobliging, they are still female, women not non-binary. I thought we had gone past 'barefoot, pregnant and chained to the kitchen sink"

Glorianny Sun 14-Aug-22 22:34:36

Galaxy

Sorry are you saying that those women who dont have children arent living a female life.

I'm comparing the life lived by Elizabeth 1 - childless, marriageless, but a life of power, with Bess of Hardwick who had many children, several marriages but who still managed to control many things and left her great house. If you don't like the word "female" feel free to replace it.

GagaJo Sun 14-Aug-22 22:26:57

Galaxy

That link is about people with a dsd, who have begged to be kept out of this discussion and who are either Male or female and not some third sex. If you are interested in hearing how people with a dsd feel about being described as on a spectrum Clare Graham is an advocate who is interesting to listen to.

This is the POV trotted out everytime this particular facet of the topic comes up. Some people with DSD may have begged to not be linked with the trans issue, one of whom you've mentioned.

FarNorth Sun 14-Aug-22 21:48:10

Claudiaclaws

For God's sake, will they ever give it a bloody rest!!!!!!!
I am absloutely sick and tired of it.

Here you are.

NanKate Sun 14-Aug-22 21:39:42

Claudia made a comment I agreed with, now I can’t find her post ?

Galaxy Sun 14-Aug-22 21:32:00

Sorry are you saying that those women who dont have children arent living a female life.

FarNorth Sun 14-Aug-22 21:29:41

Whatever the 'issues', a female person is a female person and she lives her life the best she can.

If 'non-binary' means 'doesn't fit the standard stereotypes' then that's what they are, but that isn't the definition currently being used.

Why not just accept people, of either sex, who are doing their own thing ?