MaisieD I think we should leave people from the past alone, not enlist them to a pet cause.
Spot on!
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Elizabeth I may have been non-binary, claims Shakespeare’s Globe
(386 Posts)“I know I have the body but of a weak and feeble woman,” Elizabeth I once said to rally her troops to face the Spanish Armada, “but I have the heart and stomach of a king”.
And was a non-binary person too, according to academics working for Shakespeare’s Globe, who have cast doubt on the gender identity of one of England’s greatest queens.
Elizabeth I has been presented as possibly non-binary in an essay published by the theatre, which refers to the female monarch with the gender-neutral “they/them” pronouns.
The essay was written by a “transgender awareness trainer” in defence of the Globe’s decision to stage a new play featuring a non-binary Joan of Arc, but both the play and the essay have raised concerns that famous females are being written out of history.
The essay claims: “Elizabeth I… described themself regularly in speeches as ‘king’, ‘queen’ and ‘prince’, choosing strategically to emphasise their female identity or their male monarchical role at different points.”
This appears to reference the most famous speech attributed to Elizabeth, her 1588 address at Tilbury in which she braced the nation for battle with the Spanish, saying she had the “heart and stomach of king” and “a king of England too”.
‘Historical women adopted a male identity’
The essay on the Shakespeare’s Globe website, written by Dr Kit Heyam, suggests that historical women were not only rebels for performing what were considered typically male tasks, but also in some sense adopted a male identity.
Dr Hayem writes in regard to Elizabeth I as an armour-wearing military leader: “Inhabiting that social role and dressing in the clothes associated with it, while living and working among men, may not just have felt like gendered defiance: it may have had a profound impact on their sense of self.”
The essay defends Shakespeare’s Globe announcing a new play titled I, Joan, in which Joan of Arc is represented as non-binary. The teenage warrior, famed for leading the French against the English in the 100 Years War despite being a woman in a patriarchal society, has been given the pronouns “they/them” in Globe promotional material for the production.
Dr Hayem’s essay for the theatre argues that while historians have stated that Joan wore male armour out of “practicality” during her campings, “they” may have had “deeper motivations” related to “their” identity.
Author JK Rowling signalled her bemusement that Shakespeare’s Globe would be portraying Joan of Arc as non-binary by liking a Twitter post which read: “Coming next: Napoleon was a woman because he was defeated at Waterloo.”
‘Famous females will be written out of history’
Feminist thinkers have raised concerns that casting doubts on the womanhood of prominent women because they defied gender norms, and did supposedly “manly” things, will effectively write many famous females out of history.
Philosopher Dr Jane Clare Jones said: “This is a really great example of the inherent gender conservatism in gender identity ideology. Traditional gender conservatism says that men must do ‘manly’ things, and women must do ‘womanly’ things.
“Gender identity ideology reverses that and then we end up with the idea that anyone who does ‘manly’ things must be a man, and anyone who does ‘womanly’ things must be a woman.
“This is how we end up in a situation in which historical women who have performed traditionally ‘masculine’ roles end up being re-categorised as ‘trans men’ or ‘non-binary’ or ‘not-women’ in some way.
“This is a really regressive message to be sending out, especially to young women.”
‘A regressive ideology’
Joan Smith, author of the feminist volume Misogynies, said: “Women and girls are entitled to reject stereotypes without losing our sex.
“We didn’t have enough female role models to start with, we have spent decades rediscovering women artists, authors, leaders. And now a regressive ideology is trying to take them away.”
Born in 1533, Elizabeth I became England’s longest-serving female monarch until Queen Victoria, and was famed for overseeing the emergence of the country as an international power during her 44-year reign.
Named the Virgin Queen, she never married or had children despite this being the expectations of her contemporaries.
uk.news.yahoo.com/elizabeth-may-non-binary-claims-171338852.html
Love the "We, Julia" tweet too!
Thanks Rosie51!
Thanks Rosie. Although if I get banned I am blaming you 
Thank you, Rosie51. It certainly made me chuckle.
Ah yes, that would be more in keeping with the thread ?
He does seem to have form, doesn't he?
I think this is the one Galaxy is referring to.
twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1558062397558079490
Galaxy
I like Ricky Gervais tweet on this but I cant repeat it here
But you could put the link so those of us who are interested see it. 
I have looked but couldn't find it!
Glorianny
I think the basic problem is that the theatre struggles to present things which are new and different, so it uses any thing it can latch onto as a way to change established scripts and attract new audiences. A few years ago it was women playing men, but the novelty has worn off that one. So now it's non-binary. Of course Joan's problem was directly related to the fact that she was a woman, so a bit difficult to justify making her non-binary.
This is what I've been saying. Plays are one thing, and it's not unlike Hamlet being played by Frances de la Tour, or Anne Boleyn by Jodie Turner; but suggesting that because female historical characters were 'strong' they must have been male is sexist and has no basis in reality.
Chewbacca
It'll be chaos grumppa!
No one will know what the hell they're meant to be! And heaven knows how Bottom will be cast!
I played The Wall once in A Midsummer Night's Dream.
Lathyrus
I meant my comment to follow straight on but Doodle got in between ?
Sorry
. I'm usually three posts behind where I should be, so maybe I'll catch up with myself one of these days.
And I am struggling with how to cast Schiller's Jungfrau von Orleans, in which the Maid falls for an English Lord called Lionel, and dies in battle. Lionel always sound a bit of a wimp, as names go, which makes it even more confusing.
It'll be chaos grumppa!
No one will know what the hell they're meant to be! And heaven knows how Bottom will be cast!
MadeInYorkshire
Just don't understand nor can I be bothered with all this stuff - can't people just be what they want to be?
As far as I am concerned Elizabeth 1 says it herself "I know I have the body but of a weak and feeble woman,” She has identified herself as FEMALE!
Grrrrr!
It's a discussion, an interesting one. That can be happily ignored by anyone who finds it superfluous or daft.
Yes, she didn't have an affair with Seymour, she was probably groomed and raped. She of course loved Dudley and it is known that they were very 'active'. But she did at a later stage call herself 'a virgin Queen'- which does make her sexuality 'interesting'. It can surely be discussed.
How is the Globe going to cope with As You Like It and Twelfth Night? In both plays the heroine dresses "in all parts like a man", because it is a safer thing to do in a man's world, but throws herself at a handsome chap at the first opportunity.
Lathyrus I don't think you have been on the trans threads long?
There is so so so much context you don't know
Generally I avoid them but dipped a toe thinking this was an interesting one and cos I respect Gagajo
I already explained what OK means as well
Can I go now?
You can "go" any time you like, no one is dragging anyone bound and gagged and forced to enter into any discussion; you joined in on your own free will. Is asking if "you can go now" a passive aggressive way of saying you have nothing further to add to your argument?
Interesting posts at 21.21 & 21.36 Forlornhope & Deedaa
I meant my comment to follow straight on but Doodle got in between ?
VioletSky
Why are people still questioning, making assumptions and ignoring my answer?
Oh, you quoted the wrong comment doodledog that explains it
Honestly.... these discussions are so funny sometimes, the way grown adults behave
Umm for the avoidance of doubt this is what I was referring to
GagaJo
Lathyrus
Everybody has a viewpoint.
We should be able to argue a point without needing to sneer .Any thread with a sniff of trans issues goes this way. It's an attempt at silencing.
It's an attempt to put another viewpoint, isn't it?
Folornhope I agree that in those days a Queen who had succeeded to the throne would have portrayed herself as King to underline the fact that she was the ruler. Elizabeth would have avoided marriage because her husband would have tried to make himself King, a thing that had been unpopular enough with Mary and Philip ll. There were rumours that Elizabeth had been pregnant before she succeeded, possibly with Thomas Seymour's baby, but they were only rumours.
Lathyrus
Everybody has a viewpoint.
We should be able to argue a point without needing to sneer .
Any thread with a sniff of trans issues goes this way. It's an attempt at silencing.
Yes and the academic world’s the same.
You have to come up with something new or sink down into obscurity ?
Alas for arts and scholarship.
I think the basic problem is that the theatre struggles to present things which are new and different, so it uses any thing it can latch onto as a way to change established scripts and attract new audiences. A few years ago it was women playing men, but the novelty has worn off that one. So now it's non-binary. Of course Joan's problem was directly related to the fact that she was a woman, so a bit difficult to justify making her non-binary.
I haven’t read every post so apologies if this has already been mentioned - Elizabeth I, and Mary before her, would have called themselves ‘king’ because it distinguished them as a ruler. Queen was a term for the consort because until Tudor times the ruler was male and the consort female (excepting Matilda’s brief grasp of power in C12th).
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