Tavistock Gender Clinic to close - it failed vulnerable under-18s

Doodledog

I may get tetchy when people accuse me of a phobia I don't have, or who tell me what I think, and that may mean that I come across as reasonable or rational only by comparison with the gutter press (talk about damning with faint praise ?), but that's not because of any agenda, hidden or otherwise.

Actually, I do think the debate on this issue here on GN is quite civilised, in spite of differing opinions.

People are arguing from their perspective, but supporting their argument with reasoning - regardless of whether I or anyone else thinks it's flawed.

As far as I can see, no one's stated their POV and ended with silly comments like, "end of" or "simples"... which is rife on Facebook.

I think you 'come across' as reasonable and rational regardless of any 'comparisons' ...

growstuff as you are not interested in gender identity and find the subject boring, why have you chosen to try to say that those of us who are concerned about it are getting it wrong?
It's quite an awkward way for you to ask for information. However, I hope you think about the information you are getting here and also look elsewhere if you really want to discuss this sensibly.

Unfortunately, that is the case, and in this case, the mainstream media - especially the red-tops - has eschewed rational debate in favour of polarising sensationalism which has fed into the political machine, with one party trying to sharpen its culturally libertarian credentials, and the other denouncing them - both in order to appeal to their gallery of supporters.
That may be true in some cases (IME the sections of the press which are more vocal here are not the usual suspects); but at the same time a lot of people on both sides are simply expressing their opinion. I can only speak for myself here, but whereas I have strong views on this, I am not appealing to a gallery of supporters, and nor am I denouncing anyone. I am just a member of the public with a point of view.

I do support transpeople - just not TRAs who want to dominate women, and it is they who are trying to shift the law to their agenda, which is why I speak against them. I may get tetchy when people accuse me of a phobia I don't have, or who tell me what I think, and that may mean that I come across as reasonable or rational only by comparison with the gutter press (talk about damning with faint praise ?), but that's not because of any agenda, hidden or otherwise.

Oh that's true Dickens. I havent seen her for a while.

growstuff

I guess the problem I have is that the whole issue seems to have become so polarised and politicised. I have no reason to doubt that the Tavistock failed some of its patients clinically, but I hope that its closure doesn't weaponise those who seem to believe that transitioning is always wrong.

Unfortunately, that is the case, and in this case, the mainstream media - especially the red-tops - has eschewed rational debate in favour of polarising sensationalism which has fed into the political machine, with one party trying to sharpen its culturally libertarian credentials, and the other denouncing them - both in order to appeal to their gallery of supporters.

Having read some of the comments from the readership of what I have no hesitation in calling the 'gutter' press, GN - by comparison - is a beacon of probity, rationality and civilised debate!

BTW - I've not seen Germanshepherdsmum on these boards for quite a while. I hope she's OK and just taking a holiday, or a break...

growstuff
Of course, some people with gender dysphoria develop mental illnesses as a result of the bullying they experience and feeling of not belonging and/or other reasons and that all needs unpicking before any medical intervention.
And therein lies the problem. The Tavistock operated positive affirmation, whereby any child who presented with gender confusion or distress was affirmed as transgender very quickly, and progressed on to a chemical pathway. There wasn't extensive examination of co-morbidities, nothing was unpicked. Gender dysphoria is seen in girls with autism at a hugely increased rate over the incidence in girls without autism. No questions were asked as to why this would be.

However, I truly believe that there are some people who are born in the wrong body and don't identify with the sex they're assigned at birth.
Sex is observed at birth, indeed can be observed in utero, midwives do not randomly 'assign' anything. Use of the word 'assign' is promulgated to shore up this idea that someone made a mistake over the sex.

How?
Go and read up on it growstuff. If you've not learnt anything from the dozens of previous threads on the subject on this forum, perhaps look elsewhere for feminist education.

Elegran Perhaps it is a transfer of some transwomen's own attitudes. It is a very male trait to find ANY female attractive if they are feeling horny.

Yes; and the arrogance that they have the right to demand it. Some time ago I posted a link about a young lesbian, who had been violently attacked and assaulted whilst she was out with her female partner late at night. They were in an area of town that was considered to be safe for gay and trans to socialise and so their guard was down. Both women were physically and verbally assaulted by trans women, because they'd rejected their advances and refused to have sex with them and so were "transphobic". The wishes, preferences and choices of the women were negated by those of the biological males. Testosterone rules.

I'm not hugely interested in identity politics, so I tend to ignore it. My take has always been that people are humans and I'm not really bothered by labels.
It is TRAs who are 'bothered by labels' by insisting that TWAW and refusing to even discuss how this is possible. When you think about why this matters it crystallises the issue. If TWAW they have access to women's jails, DV hostels, hospital wards etc, as well as the much-discussed changing rooms. If they appear as women in research projects the figures are skewed, which can work against women when it comes to social policy around areas where we are disadvantaged. Remaining as 'transwomen' would allow them to live their lives as they wish, but not impact on the lives of women, but they don't want this - they want to dominate women, hence the 'No Debate strategy.

My concern is that some people see gender dysphoria as a sort of mental illness which can be cured.
Which 'some people', and what makes you think that this is the case? My own take on it is that young people go through lots of 'phases', and it makes sense to let them grow up before taking irreversible medical action. I can't speak for 'some people', but 'some people' think all sorts of unaccountable things.

Of course, some people with gender dysphoria develop mental illnesses as a result of the bullying they experience and feeling of not belonging and/or other reasons and that all needs unpicking before any medical intervention.
Agreed.

However, I truly believe that there are some people who are born in the wrong body and don't identify with the sex they're assigned at birth
This hinges on the idea that 'gender' is something that is tangible and innate. I disagree - I think that gender expectations and norms exist, but that they are societal, not biological, therefore it is not possible for the body to be wrong. It is possible, of course, for people of one sex to identify more closely with the norms usually associated with the other, but IMO most people are neither one nor the other in that regard. The majority of us enjoy participating in some 'female' norms and behaviour and some 'male ones'. Insisting that people are one or the other brings us back to not liking labels but preferring to see people as humans. Without that insistence it is not possible to be in 'the wrong body'. We are in the body we are in, and societal norms, which change over time, are what constitutes 'gender'. If we change the expectation that people conform to the depending on their sex, there will be no question of 'right' or 'wrong' bodies, and no regressive return to sex-based roles outside of reproduction.

No definitive reason has ever been found (as far as I'm aware), but there are some indications that hormones in some people don't behave as expected. There have even been rare cases where sex at birth is indeterminate because reproductive organs haven't developed properly. It really isn't true to claim that an X or Y chromosome determines sex in all cases.
I am not a geneticist, so can't explain this properly, but there are no people with indeterminate sex. There are people whose genitals are not obviously male or female, but their cells are still male or female, and these people have pleaded not to get dragged into trans politics. To suggest that someone's genitals determine their sex is to suggest that someone who has had surgery for penile cancer or vulval deformity is not the sex that they are. It is labelling again. The 'Intersex' debate is complex but fraught with potholes and it is not the case that people exist on some sort of spectrum of sex. Elegran is much better than explaining this than I am, though.

Clare Graham ( Far North will help me if I have got the name wrong) did some great work giving a perspective of those with a dsd.

If you are referring to those with a dsd growstuff as I have mentioned before they have begged not to be dragged into this debate and have also pointed out that they are either Male or female not some third sex or indeterminate. I am an atheist so I cant believe in born in the wrong body, and that's one of the phrases that organisations have stopped using when people pointed out the dangers in telling young people their bodies were wrong.

Should a lesbian be willing to have sex with ANY man who has transitioned to a woman but still prefers women as sexual partners? If she is forced to act willing so as to comply with their interpretation of the law, then she would not be willingly agreeing. She would be in exactly the same position as a wife used to be in the past, when her husband had the right to sex whether she wanted it or not. Saying they are lesbian doesn't automatically make one lesbian attractive to another.

Perhaps it is a transfer of some transwomen's own attitudes. It is a very male trait to find ANY female attractive if they are feeling horny. Dugongs and manatees were perceived as beautiful mermaids by frustrated sailors. By expecting that the mere facts that they ID as women, are lesbian and are available will make female lesbians pant with desire, they display how much masculinity still lurks within them.

There have even been rare cases where sex at birth is indeterminate because reproductive organs haven't developed properly.
If those were the only people involved, it would be a very tiny proportion of the population.

Have you read about 'Rainbow', who is being publicised by GirlGuiding?
Rainbow is a boy whose parents & their friends couldn't cope with his liking things that are not standard for boys.

That is very like the situation for the son of Susie Green (CEO of Mermaids) and for every account of a 'trans' child that I've seen.

girlguiding.foleon.com/guiding-magazine/guiding-summer-2022/rainbow-girl

www.ted.com/talks/susie_green_transgender_a_mother_s_story?language=en

Chewbacca

All women have been impacted growstuff

How?

All women have been impacted growstuff

Chewbacca

^Other people's lives are the business of anyone whose own lives are impacted by their opinions and their choices.^

Exactly.

Has yours been?

Dickens Fair enough! I agree that nobody has the right to be physically disruptive, aggressive and threatening acts of violence to those with different opinions. I also agree that people's lives matter when their own life is impacted.

I guess the problem I have is that the whole issue seems to have become so polarised and politicised. I have no reason to doubt that the Tavistock failed some of its patients clinically, but I hope that its closure doesn't weaponise those who seem to believe that transitioning is always wrong.

I'm not hugely interested in identity politics, so I tend to ignore it. My take has always been that people are humans and I'm not really bothered by labels. My concern is that some people see gender dysphoria as a sort of mental illness which can be cured. Of course, some people with gender dysphoria develop mental illnesses as a result of the bullying they experience and feeling of not belonging and/or other reasons and that all needs unpicking before any medical intervention. However, I truly believe that there are some people who are born in the wrong body and don't identify with the sex they're assigned at birth. No definitive reason has ever been found (as far as I'm aware), but there are some indications that hormones in some people don't behave as expected. There have even been rare cases where sex at birth is indeterminate because reproductive organs haven't developed properly. It really isn't true to claim that an X or Y chromosome determines sex in all cases.

Other people's lives are the business of anyone whose own lives are impacted by their opinions and their choices.

Exactly.

It's baffling that people are complaining about a vocal trans lobby because it seems to me that the anti-trans lobby (certainly on GN) is fairly vocal and I don't really understand why other people's lives are any of their business.

Being "vocal" is one thing. The TG community has as much right as any other demographic to be just that. Being physically disruptive, aggressive, and threatening acts of violence to others whose opinions oppose theirs, is a whole other story.

Other people's lives are the business of anyone whose own lives are impacted by their opinions and their choices.

A link to what NHS England has said :
www.england.nhs.uk/commissioning/spec-services/npc-crg/gender-dysphoria-clinical-programme/implementing-advice-from-the-cass-review/

And to Dr Cass's advice :
cass.independent-review.uk/publications/

Lesbians have been sold down the river by Stonewall & others insisting that they should be willing to have sexual relationships with male people who say they are lesbians.

www.spiked-online.com/2021/10/28/the-homophobia-of-the-trans-lobby/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

Sorry growstuff but anecdotal evidence isn't really that valuable, so those two happy trans people you know aren't proof of anything.

A short interview with Dr David Bell.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/finally?r=k9z5j&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Just posting this here as I don’t want to start another thread.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/what-happened-to-harry-last-night?r=k9z5j&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Sorry Rosie51 but anecdotal evidence isn't really that valuable. What about people who are genuinely trans?

I don't understand how lesbians have been sold down the river. Some people aren't lesbians - they're trans and want to live as men. Trying to persuade trans people that they are homosexual is cruel. Of course any fundamental change must be accompanied by sensitive and extensive counselling.

It's baffling that people are complaining about a vocal trans lobby because it seems to me that the anti-trans lobby (certainly on GN) is fairly vocal and I don't really understand why other people's lives are any of their business.

Allsorts

When I was fifteen I wanted to travel the world, never marry or have children. Then I fell in love, married, had children and went to Cornwall on holiday. You change so much as teenagers.

It's far from unusual to know people who followed a career path, met a partner, had children and were convinced this is who they were and the life they wanted. Later they separate, go down a different life and career path, and find they're happier. All these are valid decisions made as adults. And yet there are some who are convinced children and adolescents are able to make irreversible decisions about their bodies from age 11 or so. Decisions that can demand lifelong permanent medication, predispose them to life limiting conditions, and irreversibly alter their physical bodies. And anyone who counsels caution or concern is a bigot out to ruin lives?

We don't usually hear about being trapped in a trans body but it does happen. Yes, and not always to young people with good cognisance. Elaine Miller actually cites an old person who transgendered in old age, then got dementia and 'forgot' they'd transgendered and was severely distressed at being dressed 'wrongly'. What a horrendous state of affairs at the end of your life, to live with that level of distress.

Such a shame that what was a brilliant pressure/campaigning group ie Stonewall who had achieved their aims, decided to go where the $$$ are and ditched their founding causes in favour of more lucrative directions. To say they've sold lesbians down the river is an understatement.