Tavistock Gender Clinic to close - it failed vulnerable under-18s

I know what you mean, Dickens. I don't remember wanting to be a boy, but I know it wasn't uncommon in my own (60s/70s) childhood, and I do remember thinking that the differences in our childhoods were deeply unfair. My brother had a lot more freedom than my sisters and me - not just in where he was allowed to go, or what he was allowed to do, but things he could say. We had to be 'ladylike', and our entire vocabulary was policed, whereas boys could say things in male company that they were sanctioned for if in mixed company. Swearing, obviously, but also topics that should or shouldn't be mentioned and ways of expressing emotions of all kinds were very 'gendered' and gender was firmly based on sex. I firmly believe that language is very important, and controlling things like vocabulary is a very effective way of controlling someone's life. There were huge differences between what was expected of him and us, on a daily basis as well as for adult life. We were expected to marry and take 'jobs' to help out the household budget, whereas he was expected to have a career that would support a family. That attitude was common then, and may have felt as oppressive to boys as it was to girls, but it did lead to an imbalance of power between the sexes, as the easiest way for women to 'succeed' was to marry the man with the most promise. Girls were put into competition with one another, and the dynamic between the sexes was skewed in favour of the 'breadwinners' who often had the final say on important things. School was very different too, with boys being taught more interesting subjects and again, being socialised differently from girls.

Things have moved on, fortunately; but some of these divisions will remain and others have been added. Someone mentioned porn, which I agree is a very negative influence on young people, and social media bring their own problems too.

I don't know if there has ever been a time to be young that is 'better' than others. Each generation has good and bad influences. The big difference today, though, is that not being happy with the gender roles ascribed to one sex or the other is being dealt with by medicating out of it, with surgery at one end of the scale and 'identification' at the other. I think that it would be better for both society as a whole and for individual people if we could remove some of the gender-based expectations instead of cramming people back into them with drugs, binders or surgery.

PS growstuff, that's not what I said. I said that you are among those who claim to find the subject 'boring', say you don't bother to read threads about it, yet join in just to put us right. The other comments (eg calling us 'extremists') were more general. I mentioned your name as you are on this thread, and I am not a fan of the passive aggressive 'some posters' way of making a point.

I am hoping that the way things are moving in Europe will mean a less inflammatory approach. I have just read an interesting comment about why Europe is changing its approach whilst America is doubling down. It is feminists who have mostly led the debate in Europe whilst in America it has become a battleground between left and right. So that becomes the goodies and baddies in the world of social media in particular.

The link posted by grannydarkhair, for the Kemi Badenoch article, now has a paywall.
It can be read from here :

archive.ph/2022.07.30-172911/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-tavistock-scandal-shows-the-dangers-of-civil-service-groupthink-5bj2z26c7

And screenshot of a comment.

Thanks for your response Doodledog.

I am attempting to be as objective as is possible with such an emotive, and seemingly inflammatory, subject.

And in spite of the accusations from one side to the other, I genuinely believe most of this discourse is being conducted in a civilised fashion. I can't help but notice this in comparison with some other social media sites, either. I didn't mean to damn with faint praise - but the difference is notable.

Regarding the "explosion" in the number of young people feeling they are in the wrong body, I can only think that it follows the same principle as Parkinson's Law, in that it will expand according to the resources available to deal with it.

I remember well that as an 8 year old girl, I felt extremely irritated by the restrictions that prevented me from taking part in activities that were more fun and more interesting than those allotted to girls in the 40s and 50s. This gradually grew into a resentment of my female body and the damned clothing I was expected to wear to cover it. BUT, there were no social media sites where I could discuss this, no avenues to go down, no organisations catering for it, otherwise I would have sure as hell pursued them. The family accepted me as a 'tom-boy', indulged my preferences without comment and gradually the resentment waned as I matured - although to this day, I still prefer trousers to dresses and have no interest in what are considered to be 'girly' pastimes (like 'pamper' sessions, etc). All purely anecdotal, non of it traumatic to me, so not in any way representative of the real dysmorphia felt by some young people - this is just to illustrate the lack of understanding or recognition of such problems suffered by young children and teenagers previously.

Incidentally, I haven't accused anybody of being an extremist or "gender critical". Stop imagining things and playing the victim.

No doodledog I didn't write that trans threads are beneath my notice. They make me quite angry, so I move on usually.

This is one of the questions that a lot of people struggle with. Why has there been an explosion in the number of young people feeling that they are 'in the wrong body' when this was a rare occurrence that most of us did not come across at all when we were young?
I would think this explosion would trigger most sane people who would be immediately asking "how, why, when" and desperately searching for answers and explanations. Most people would be horrified at such an increase in numbers over such a short time. If the number of murders increased by the same ratio over the same timescale it would be headline news on every outlet. But when it's girls wanting to transition to boys, then it's a handwave and on to more important stuff.

Thank you Dickens, and I apologise if I got the tone of your post wrong.

It's not your fault at all, but it feels that there have been a lot of posts lately lumping together 'the gender critical' (often referred to on here as 'some people') and accusing us of bullying 'allies' off the boards - even when it is clear that nothing of the sort has taken place as it is obvious that they are still here. We have also been accused of closing down discussions when in fact the closing down is done when 'allies' refuse to answer questions that would clarify their position, and flounce from a thread, leaving us talking to ourselves. Ironically, we are then accused of being boring and living in an echo chamber. The obvious response to that would be to join in a discussion and broaden it by adding a different viewpoint, or at least to answer questions that would offer the potential for us to change our minds, even a little bit, but this doesn't happen. We are told to 'educate ourselves' or our questions are just ignored.

I know that you are not guilty of this, and maybe I shouldn't have jumped on your post, but lately there seems to be a trend of people claiming not to have an opinion, or, like growstuff on this thread suggesting that 'trans threads' are usually beneath their notice, but then going on to accuse us of extremism and suggesting that it is 'the gender critical' who are obsessed with labels, when IMO the reverse is the case. I mistakenly assumed that your post was going to be more of the same, and I shouldn't have done so.

Glorianny how do you explain what you describe as 'the huge increase in the number of children needing help'?

This is one of the questions that a lot of people struggle with. Why has there been an explosion in the number of young people feeling that they are 'in the wrong body' when this was a rare occurrence that most of us did not come across at all when we were young? I have explained my take on this in my answer to growstuff at 09:29 upthread, but wonder what your own view might be.

It's just astonishing that medical professionals thought it was fine to continue like that.

From a quick skim read earlier today I 'think' that anyone passing through the clinics from now on will be followed, their outcomes assessed etc. How shameful that no ongoing records or data was kept of children who were started on the transition process, what their outcomes were, how many had problems, detransitioned etc You could almost think the ideology was the be all and end all .......

Yes, let’s hope there is adequate funds allocated to the two new clinics. If all NHS services stopped paying for “training, etc” from Stonewall, Mermaids and who knows how many similar organisations, that money could be used for employing extra staff perhaps.

That's a very good piece about the workings of Whitehall - and terrifying to see how near the brink of complete lunacy we were (although Scotland still is).

Glorianny I agree with you on the funding though it depends to what purpose it is put.

I don't see Tavistock's closure as an end to the problem but it is an end to a service that was failing children and young people.
I very much hope the new provision will do better.

I do think it is time that people stopped regarding the closing of the Tavistock as some sort of end to the problem. The GICs that will take on the treatment of children will still be dealing with the same problems. A huge increase in the number of children needing help, long waiting lists and a lack of adequate provision. How staff will manage remains to be seen but it is undoubtedly true that the same pressures on them will remain. Perhaps if Kemi Badenoch wanted to really help she should ask for more funding for the service.

Good piece by Kemi Badenoch and yes I know she’s a Conservative.

twitter.com/hjoycegender/status/1553441683622199297?s=12

I'm not placing anyone in a box.
It's hard to know, tho, how determined any ally is to have "acceptance without exception" as Stonewall's slogan has it.

I've always said that people should be getting a good standard of care and counselling and that there should be no irreversible measures taken until that was fully achieved.

I have also said the waiting lists are far too long...

I agree with you on those things.

FarNorth

In my view, 'better standard of care' means much more exploratory counseling with young people.
To supporters of trans ideology, it means much quicker access to hormones and surgery for anyone who believes they are trans.

To supporters of trans ideology?

What does that mean?

Are you placing me within that box?

I've always said that people should be getting a good standard of care and counselling and that there should be no irreversible measures taken until that was fully achieved.

I have also said the waiting lists are far too long...

The new hubs will aim to achieve these things and I'm glad

I don't know what a trans ideology is or whether you are suggesting that all trans people and their allies belong to it?

In my view, 'better standard of care' means much more exploratory counseling with young people.
To supporters of trans ideology, it means much quicker access to hormones and surgery for anyone who believes they are trans.

FarNorth

I'm not sure why you are asking me?

I've already said that we need a better standard of care and hopefully now that will be achieved

I'm not a doctor so I can't give a professional opinion

Yes.

Has anyone noticed that the word/words man/men have not been removed from all NHS literature whereas. The word/words woman/women have.

Teenagers online?
Maybe that has something to do with the 4,000 % rise in girls being referred to the Tavistock.
Maybe they are stunned by online porn, boys' attitudes based on online porn, and general sexism in popular culture and wider society.
Whether consciously, or not, perhaps girls just want out of that.

The answer should not always be medication and surgery, as we are hearing from detransitioners.

VioletSky and Glorianny what about children such as Rainbow and Jackie Green and Kai Shappley and Jazz Jennings?
Children who have been coached throughout their childhoods to believe that they are something called 'trans' and that means they must pretend to be the opposite sex.

A similar story was told in the TV drama 'Butterfly', which was hailed as a landmark in trans acceptance so, I'd assume, a reasonably typical 'trans child' scenario.
Max, in the drama, clearly had a homophobic father and very confused family and friends.
Like the other boys I've mentioned, Max concluded he must really be a girl.

Those children, and many others, should simply have been allowed to enjoy what they liked, while not denying their real sex.

Vintagenonna

One of the most difficult aspects of all this (thinking about Prof. Bell's comments) is the fear some therapists had that some young people had been rehearsed or coached by adults into what to say in order to speed up the process of accessing hormone disrupting therapy.

If your child has waited 4 years to be seen at a gender clinic I doubt if much coaching would be needed. The adults caring for the child might have affirmed and accepted their desire to change gender. What else could you do? Have a permanent battle with your child?
It's far more likely anyway that the child has been on line and had help from their peers about what to ask for and how to get it. It's what teenagers do.

Yes it is closing. Having one service for the whole country was never going to be accessible to everyone and the huge pressure on overworked staff was leading to mistakes which just aren't acceptable.

It will be replaced by several hubs across the UK with more funding and more staff.

Much better but I hope not too big a gap before service's resume fully

Thank you for reminding me about Claire Graham, Galaxy.

Here's a link to an interview with her where she explains -

"Assigned sex is really a term for IGM, intersex genital mutilation. In the past, and sadly still in many places today, if a child was born with genitalia that didn’t look typically male or female (what we call ambiguous genitalia), doctors would perform surgery to make the genitals appear “normal”. Due to the limitations of surgery, doctors developed a theory: “It’s easier to build a pole than dig a hole”. This meant children with ambiguous genitalia would have a surgically created penis and be assigned male, even if they were female. In these cases, we use the term “assigned sex”. It’s important that we have unique language to describe that experience."

womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/21/biological-sex-is-not-a-spectrum-there-are-only-two-sexes-in-humans-with-claire-graham/