Tavistock Gender Clinic to close - it failed vulnerable under-18s

- or even a choice of skirt or trousers for everyone.
That’s better, but actually, in many schools that already exists.

Indeed, our local primary just lists the required items and says nothing further.

I’ve spent the last hour contacting people I know up and down the England. All bar one say their school (including one all girl school, has a a choice of skirt/pinafore/ trousers or some add shorts. The one missing one had a kilt for girls. I didn’t ask if any had transgender children, but if they did there wouldn’t be a problem.
Re-all wearing a kilt, if cost was not an issue, I wonder if we’d see an outcry of discrimination from boys who don’t want to wear a skirt and objections from girls who want to be seen as boys?

When did making a comment become a sign of a 'constant obsession?

My children wore jogging trousers with school polos and sweatshirts in primary school. I don't see why they couldn't do that in high schools too, instead of the shirt and tie arrangement that makes the girls look like honorary men.

How do 'a lot' of families raise children without gender norms VS? Do they have to find special (presumably private) schools to help with this? I'd be surprised if many mainstream schools would have time or inclination to use neutral pronouns, possibly separate uniforms, games lessons and so on for them, whilst not making the children seem different from others. Or am I wrong there?

Also, the children themselves will know their sex. Aren't there problems with that, too?

A school here had the kilt as uniform, but it was done away with, as the cost was absolutely extortionate.

Mollygo

I remember how it was shown that physically pre puberty girls are as strong as boys but think they are weaker because of what they see in adults .
Nice one G. So now it’s the girls’ fault for thinking they are weaker.

It's nobody's fault (why this constant obsession to attribute blame?). It's simply an example of how what children see in adults influences their thinking, even when it is untrue.

How about a kilt or kilted skirt with shirt, T-shirt or and/or fleece in school colours? In Edinburgh we often see the girls of a private school in their uniform kilted skirt - boys could wear a kilt too. It looks good on either sex. The only drawback is the cost! Perhaps an enterprising manufacturer could design and produce a simpler and cheaper version that satisfies everyone, from macho lads to princess girls, and is affordable by all - not an easy commission..

FarNorth
Instead of validating 'trans' identity by allowing a pupil to wear the 'opposite sex uniform' it would be better if schools had unisex uniform for all*
I agree, except that when there was a discussion about unisex uniform, the uniform was expected to be trousers not skirts-and that’s not unisex when many of the girls wanted mmmmmmm voted for skirts.

- or even a choice of skirt or trousers for everyone.
That’s better, but actually, in many schools that already exists.

How do posters in here envisage a unisex uniform?

I remember how it was shown that physically pre puberty girls are as strong as boys but think they are weaker because of what they see in adults .
Nice one G. So now it’s the girls’ fault for thinking they are weaker.

The first whistleblower was 18 years ago. The parents gave their concerns to the board in 2018. Their safeguarding lead took them to court. I think we may have gone beyond 'mistakes'.

If I was to list the many medical mistakes and wrong treatments that have been given (and are still being given) for all sorts of problems it would take up pages. Of course it isn't right, of course doctors and other professionals make mistakes they are human. But it doesn't solve the problem to castigate those who at least tried. Nor does it help any transgender child to say things like "I was a bit of a tomboy but I grew out of it." You wouldn't say to someone suffering a period of depression- just pull yourself together. The thing that I find most distasteful about these threads is the concern which may be genuine, but which wallows in every mistake and reported mistreatment, as if that justifies a view that all children have been badly served when treated.Especially when the real problem is that children are waiting so long for any sort of treatment or care. And I would imagine any child who was referred at 12 and gets a first appointment 4 years later will already have been in contact with a number of people, via social media,, and is way past the stage where they will accept anything other than the treatment they have learned is possible. If you think the problem is something that can be tackled and a child's mind can be changed you should be lobbying for early intervention and counselling and asking for a gender service in every city in the UK not celebrating because one clinic tried but failed.

The idea that gender identity is being imposed on children may be right, but as was shown in a recent TV programme the concepts about gender are so deeply lodged in our society it is virtually impossible to remove them. I remember how it was shown that physically pre puberty girls are as strong as boys but think they are weaker because of what they see in adults .

FarNorth

^I wear men's jeans because I like wearing them, and no-one bats an eyelid^

But it's within living memory, just about, that that was considered shocking too.
There are still circumstances where skirts are insisted on for female people - the uniforms of many schools, for instance.
Instead of validating 'trans' identity by allowing a pupil to wear the 'opposite sex uniform' it would be better if schools had unisex uniform for all - or even a choice of skirt or trousers for everyone.

As for children criticising each other, I think it's a combination of natural inclination and the circumstances aroound them.
Children have to learn, all the time, what is acceptable and what isn't - as a normal part of life. So it's natural that someone who has learnt a rule, whether it's a real rule or not, wants to make sure that others follow it too.

But it's within living memory, just about, that that was considered shocking too.

Oh, absolutely. I was not infrequently called a "Lezzie" when at age 13 I started wearing what had become fashionable - boy's jeans. I also had a huge 'ban-the-bomb' logo painted on one leg so I also got called a "commie Lezzie". By men. Who probably felt threatened by women wearing trousers. Some of them are still around and possibly still hold that view. Fortunately, the younger generation are somewhat more open-minded.

Instead of validating 'trans' identity by allowing a pupil to wear the 'opposite sex uniform' it would be better if schools had unisex uniform for all - or even a choice of skirt or trousers for everyone.

This, 100%. That would certainly break down some barriers. We might even eventually reach the stage where a man wearing a skirt was accepted in the same way women wearing jeans with flies is. I've seen fashion parades where men have been wearing skirts with shirts, ties and a jacket. Logically, why not?

Glorianny
Accepting people, children or adults as who or what they say they are is one thing. Accepting that they are allowed to do whatever they want is something else.
Is that what you do? Even if what they want to do is harmful to others and even to themselves?
Wanting there to be clinics where children are treated safely and not just put on a pathway that has not been proven to be safe at a clinic that has supported that harmful treatment is surely the aim of all.
FarNorth

Galaxy

We can't base medical treatment on those thoughts though, its leading to poorer outcomes for the new cohort ( f to m) as the model of intervention was based on m to f transition.

Yes, I think this is a really important thing to raise galaxy.

VS That's fine for adults who are not trying to impose themselves on others and are not overriding anyone's rights.

Children were not being encouraged to get involved in sexual relationships of any kind, or to decide their sexual orientation and base their whole life around that.
Young people were expected to find out their sexual orientation as they reached, and went beyond, puberty.

The idea of gender identity is being imposed on children. It is completely based on adults' obsession with stereotypes.

Glorianny

Why am I expected to explain the increase in the number of transgender children. I have no idea. Perhaps it's because children are listened to more and their views considered, perhaps there's something in the water, perhaps it's pollution, there are a million possibilities (I once had a taxi driver tell me vapour trails in the sky were the government spraying us to keep us calm!!)
They exist, they need care and consideration. It's not my job or my concern to wonder why. I just accept them.

You "accept them" as being the opposite sex if they say so?
Do you do the same for people who say they are too fat, if they aren't?
Have I missed seeing you on 'Anorexia Rights' threads saying we just need to accept what they say?
How about 'Jesus Rights' threads saying that you believe everyone who says they are God made mortal?

We can't base medical treatment on those thoughts though, its leading to poorer outcomes for the new cohort ( f to m) as the model of intervention was based on m to f transition.

Many have understood and accepted that people are born gay and there is no medical or environmental factor or its not the devil (depending on your beliefs).

As acceptance rose, more gay people came out.

I think it's just the same thing.

Ten years ago, trans people weren't on my radar. Now I stand with many saying, you are welcome and accepted.

More trans people coming forward is the same normal response to feeling safe to do so.

Yet things are now going backwards

I hope that doesn't scare people away from being their authentic selves but I think it will.

Anecdotally in my area we seem to have an increase in children being referred to speech and language this year, the explanation (lockdown) would seem to be obvious but we tend not to ignore these fluctuations, particularly if they are affecting one part of society at a disproportionate rate. This doesnt mean we dont care for those children, in fact the absolute opposite.

We dont do that with medical care. It's not how it works. Someone needs to look at that issue with urgency, (not you to be fair) in the way they would look at any unexplained change.

Why am I expected to explain the increase in the number of transgender children. I have no idea. Perhaps it's because children are listened to more and their views considered, perhaps there's something in the water, perhaps it's pollution, there are a million possibilities (I once had a taxi driver tell me vapour trails in the sky were the government spraying us to keep us calm!!)
They exist, they need care and consideration. It's not my job or my concern to wonder why. I just accept them.

I would love the gender neutral uniform.

Even just because in secondary the girls uniform is so much more expensive. Has to be a school shirt and skirt when the boys can just buy any white shirt and black trousers.

Talk about pink tax starting young

I wear men's jeans because I like wearing them, and no-one bats an eyelid

But it's within living memory, just about, that that was considered shocking too.
There are still circumstances where skirts are insisted on for female people - the uniforms of many schools, for instance.
Instead of validating 'trans' identity by allowing a pupil to wear the 'opposite sex uniform' it would be better if schools had unisex uniform for all - or even a choice of skirt or trousers for everyone.

As for children criticising each other, I think it's a combination of natural inclination and the circumstances aroound them.
Children have to learn, all the time, what is acceptable and what isn't - as a normal part of life. So it's natural that someone who has learnt a rule, whether it's a real rule or not, wants to make sure that others follow it too.

I dont think you can raise children without gender norms unless you isolate them from society. I work in early years all the boys wear the dresses and dressing up shoes, its completely different by age 6. It's very difficult to tackle those gender norms that appear to becoming more rigid.

A lot of family are raising children without gender norms.

This may have the benifit of children not feeling that they have to identify as a different gender in order to express themselves.

It also has the benefit that children feel they are able to come out as LGBTQ and be accepted by their families... Well their nuclear families at least, not all family members agree and support them unfortunately.

Doodledog

I think that it would be better for both society as a whole and for individual people if we could remove some of the gender-based expectations instead of cramming people back into them with drugs, binders or surgery.

Oh, I so agree with that sentiment.

If people were free to express themselves without the limitations of these expectations and without the condemnation of those who impose and uphold them, we might be in a better place than we are now.

Does a man with a beard have to identify as a woman in order to wear a dress? Sounds outlandish, but I wear men's jeans because I like wearing them, and no-one bats an eyelid. What is the difference? What if the man just feels more comfortable in a dress / skirt / sarong?

I had a friend (years ago now) whose son aged around 9 had beautiful long red hair and wanted it to be curly, he also wanted to learn to play the violin at the same time as being passionate about football. I have this memory of him sitting on the sofa one day - his hair tightly wrapped in curling-paper, playing the violin with his long spidery legs dangling from the seat encased in huge football boots with dried mud dropping off them, waiting to go for a game. I don't know if he identified with anything other than being himself and I don't believe he gave it much thought either because no one was placing any restrictions on him. OK, another purely anecdotal reference and it's not data, nor does it signify much other than the possibility that if young people are allowed to express themselves in any way they see fit, there might not be such angst, worry and confusion. The biggest drawback to that though comes from their own peer group. Children and teenagers are very critical of each other - but where do they learn that? Is it a natural tendency, or are they taught to be so critical? I have no idea.