Speaking the truth about brexit

They may have been thought of as truths by the people who espoused them but they weren't true WWM2. For all those things you mention we have now found out that none of them represented the world, in truth. Perhaps people in the 14th Century "knew" the world was flat, but Aristotle knew in the 4th century BC that is was a globe. There are absolute truths in the world.

Such as, Brexit has been bad for us. And people may say that they believe its true that Brexit has been good for us, but that is just not true.

For me it was the way that Brexit advocates were promoting their aim that convinced me to vote against. If you start a dispute with your neighbours and then start talking about cherry picking and walking away if you don’t get what you want, it’s going to end badly.

It has done just that, we did not get any concessions, nor did we walk away, even worse, all the EU regulations has been thrown out so nothing complies with their rules.

How supposedly intelligent politians failed to realise the morass they were creating is beyond me, or was it all just for the short term gain by a few.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 I think your examples are beliefs not truths

Facts, beliefs and truths are close relatives and open to interpretation.

Remember the internet dress several years ago which people saw in different colours when people posted what colours they saw they were posting the truth as they viewed it…

But those so called beliefs were thought of as truths.

lemsip

*Whose truth are you talking about? Truth unfortunately is generally relative.*

exactly!

That is such an unthought out answer. I can't believe you are repeating it.

You are saying that it is a truth that truth is relative.
That means you are saying your "truth" that truth is relative is a relative truth and may not be a truth at all.

If I say 2 + 2 = 4 you can tell me it isn't the truth and that you prefer 6 as the answer. Most people will just not bother with what you are saying. That is exactly what they should do with people who think their opinion is worth more than truth and facts.

How anyone can continue to say Brexit was a good thing, is beyond me. It was a disaster, as we now see daily

Whitewavemark2 I think your examples are beliefs not truths

Facts, beliefs and truths are close relatives and open to interpretation.

Remember the internet dress several years ago which people saw in different colours when people posted what colours they saw they were posting the truth as they viewed it…

volver

No, surely truth is absolute.

How it is interpreted is relative.

That’s an interesting statement.

I would argue that “truth” is a human construct.

So truth in the 13th century was that Jerusalem was the centre of the world

Truth in the 14th century was that the earth is flat

Truth in the 15th century was that the king was chosen by god and had the right therefore to absolute rule

I won’t go on but “truth” changes over time.

No, surely truth is absolute.

How it is interpreted is relative.

Whose truth are you talking about? Truth unfortunately is generally relative.

exactly!

Airport chaos

Ryanair CEO Michael O'Leary: Its Brexit
Jet 2 CEO Stephen Heapy: Its Brexit
Travel Journalist Simon Calder: Its Brexit

Tory MP Grant Shapps: Its not Brexit

Careful Maizie, you are pointing out a truth there.

The UK has been training Ukranian forces since 2014. Being in the EU didn't prevent that...

We certainly acted independantly of the EU, but so did other nations each in different ways, Germany depends heavily on Russian energy and was very careful, others gave direct help quickly

Have any EU countries welcomed fewer Ukranian refugees per head of population than the UK?

Jane71
I really don't know whether I'd vote the same now or not. We have been able to be quicker and more decisive helping in Ukraine than if we were still in the EU - and the other countries may have tried to do even less than they have so far if they could claim credit 'through' us.

Brexit has caused a massive increase in beaurocracy which is stretching the civil service. Now Johnson wants to cut staffing by 20%

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/05/civil-service-cuts-will-leave-whitehall-unable-to-cope-with-brexit-workload

Where’s the banging your head against a brick wall emoji? ?

I disagree Chestnut, the electorate were promised great things as soon as Brexit was done remember? We were told that there would be countries queueing up to sign trade deals, that food would be cheaper, so many, too many false promises that it would take too long to list them. Covid has certainly been a major factor, possibly a convenient excuse for the fact that none, not one, of these so called benefits have materialised. My main reason for voting to remain, apart from being happy with the benefits that being a member of the EU brought me, was to look at who was supporting Brexit; Farage, Trump, Bannon, Putin are not people whose opinions I trust, so if they were for it, I was by definition against it. I don't count Johnson in this for as we know, he sat on the fence until he discerned which way would be best for his career.

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Will Hutton

Tory politics may forbid its discussion, but the gathering economic and currency crisis triggered by Brexit can no longer be ignored. Now on the business pages, it will soon be front page. Sterling is in crisis and there’s no sugar-coating the reason why

Brexit was skewed by covid which has had a far greater impact. The two were in progress at the same time. There is no way of knowing what would have happened without covid. And no-one expected Brexit to sort itself out straight away, it was always going to take time.

If the referendum had been treated as the advisory vote that it was supposed to be it could have been used as a basis for discussion about the future. How we saw our future, how much of a part of Europe we wanted to be, what would really be the repercussions of moving away from free trade and free travel would be. Not to mention the loss of research grants and collaboration with colleagues across Europe.

Instead we had the result treated as a done deal and Boris rushing in to Get Brexit Done as fast as possible with depressingly predictable results.

Sandelf
I voted for withdrawal as I could see our armed forces coming under control of Brussels and for me that was a step too far.

I have never considered that a posssibility, certainly not in the medium term. I think that a European armed force was more likely, in a similar way to NATO, and that sounds reasonable to me.
Brexit was never about practical issues, but emotional ones. It was rather like Trump and his 'make America great again' slogan.

It is slowly starting to creep into statements and broadcasts though; many people from travel, hospitality, import/export are saying that Brexit has had a detrimental effect on their industries, we can no longer pretend that this is just a few disgruntled remainers. Did anyone else hear Grant Schapps on Sophie Raworth this morning admit that he hadn't voted for Brexit? There is no cause to rejoice in being proved right, no joy in watching business struggle, and no joy in blaming people for how they voted. Unlike many of the leave group, who told many of us to 'get over it' and called us 'remoaners' I take no pleasure in seeing how the people of this country were lied to. It is a disgrace and a disaster whichever way you voted.

There is no 'truth' nor right or wrong. We all voted (I hope) according to our best judgement at the time. Now we have to go forward as best we can. I voted for withdrawal as I could see our armed forces coming under control of Brussels and for me that was a step too far. I knew there would be trade and diplomatic consequences, but I felt loss of autonomy in defence was a higher priority - others feel differently. I was not happy to be called a stupid, racist, nutcase over it. Malice between ourselves just does not help.

M0nica

In politics, each party has the policies that it believes in implicitly and cannot believe that their arguments based on their absolute truth of the situation can not be blindingly clear to anyone who reads them.

These truths are different depending on which side of the political divide you stand.

This is a political thread and I talk of the ambiguity of competing truths within that context.

M0nica, it is, of course, the case that parties believe in their policies. I'm not sure they would say that is because they are based on an "absolute truth" though. They would surely be more likely to say they are finding answers to facts. Of course, facts can change and progress (or not) by applying those policies.

Your comments make me wonder about the anger we have within politics of recent years. If those that follow a party actually believe their thinking is based on a truth not facts it might explain why some see it like a religion.

The issue I have with your relativism when it comes to "truth" is that, by your measure, it cannot be true.