I think flat faced dogs should be banned

Not according to the kennel club vet interviewed on the news earlier MissAdventure. Anyway I prefer to go by personal experience and my vet tells me mine are healthy and fit and can and do not only breathe well but run and jump around with ease. Dogs that struggle to breathe can be for many reasons usually obesity oh but that's seen in dogs of all breeds not just Brachycephalic ones. Mine are also a healthy weight. If the owners were concerned they could have the problem rectified by surgery. Just as if they were concerned about their dogs weight they could stop over feeding it.

FlexibleFriend

I have two Pugs did have 3 until a few months ago and until then none of them had ever been to the vet with issues of any description. They had their jabs, medication for ears etc but that was it. The one who was pts a couple of months ago had a inoperable tumour she was 14 and healthy up to that point. I had her from 12 weeks old and she was adorable. I have two left both rehomes and both healthy. I haven't always had Pugs I got them because of my disability and inability to walk. Before becoming disabled I had 3 Dobermanns and walked 10 miles a day every day. All 3 died of cancer of one description or another all within the space of 18 months and all at 8 years old. My Pug did so much better and I get why people are so against them but please don't judge them all by the 5% that suffer and visit the vets so frequently when the other 95% are doing fine.

They are said to be very intelligent, funny little dogs. I must admit that, even though I’m not a fan of flat faced dogs I do have a soft spot for Pugs.

I think the Kennel Club has a lot to answer for as do the show judges who glorify these poor deformed animals.
I know a a French bulldog that struggles to walk more than a hundred yards, can’t eat from a bowl on the floor and who’s breathing is laboured even at rest.
I pity the poor creatures.

I am the owner of a 10 year old pug. He is beautiful and I love him dearly. I have had him since he was 2 years old and he came from a local rehoming centre. He is my 4th dog (the only pedigree) and all have had previous owners.
Pugs need a considerable amount of care to keep their eyes and skin in good condition. Mine has no known health conditions but I think that is quite unusual. He will not normally go out for a walk during June, July and August. Its a shame but it is safer to just let him have permit access to the garden.
Not for one moment do I regret rehoming him, he has been a joy but, I cannot understand why anyone would set out to purchase a new puppy.

So blame the breeders of dogs with issues not the breed or the dogs. There are badly bred dogs of all breeds maybe not so obvious but Labradors and German shepherds with hip dysplasia, Cavalier king charles with Chiari malformation and Syringomyelia probably every popular breed has health issues in their breed even the lovable rogues Jack Russells who have a habit of little hops when they run due to patella luxation.

Oscar had an op on his soft palate and another on his nostrils, and he breaths perfectly normally. I am not saying that it's ok for them to need these operations, or that it is acceptable that they need them, but there is nothing cruel or unnecessary about his life.

To say that crossbreeds such as Labradoodles are ridiculous, that people paying money for them are stupid and that they should be stopped by law shows a woeful lack of knowledge of dogs. If anything, the cross-breeding is helpful to them, as the gene pool is broadened and the over-breeding needed to produce any pedigree dog is mitigated. Calling them names that reflect their heritage is a way for owners to describe their dogs in ways that are meaningful to those who do know what they are talking about. Why does that 'need to be stopped'??

Seriously - would people rather we went back to having dogs roaming about 'doing what comes naturally', and have the resulting puppies drowned in canals because homes can't be found?

Or have pets phased out, as the options are between that and breeding pedigrees? I agree with GSM that the KC is responsible for a lot; but the fact remains that any pedigree dog runs a risk of suffering as a result of overbreeding, but as mongrels are now in short supply there is little chance of getting a pet that has not been bred to their specifications.

Maybe the much maligned 'cross-breeds' such as cockapoos might be the best option?

Surely there is a happy medium?
Having a mongrel doesn't mean letting it roam around, anymore than having a pug, jug, labradoodle, cockadoodledoo or anything else does.

Nobody is blaming the dogs.
How can a life of operations and recovery be their fault?

Operations to fix the issues that have been bred into them to make them look cute.

I see nothing cute about a dog labouring for breath, or one that can't walk properly, whatever the breed.

My point is that mongrels only existed because people let their dogs roam around to mate with other roaming dogs. That rarely happens now because of (necessary) changes in legislation.

This means that dogs only breed under supervision, and as soon as people get involved you are looking at the crossbreeds we've seen ridiculed (not by you) or pedigrees that have problems bred in. Pedigrees only exist because people wanted to breed dogs to pull in boats or go down rabbit holes and so on. They are not 'natural' whether the breed is likely to have problems (and most do) or not.

Who has said that a life of operations is a good thing? Or that it is 'cute' for dogs to have breathing or mobility problems? I haven't seen anyone say that.

I agree that regulation is necessary, but I don't think it is as simple as it has been presented in some of the posts on this thread.

No we don’t need to go back to the days of dogs wandering the streets ….that’s the last thing needed doodle
The cockapoo is not maligned it’s a lovely cross breed dog what is much maligned is the fact that by giving it a cute and fancy name the breeders can diddle the public out of copious amount of money by conning then into believing they are getting some wonderful new breed of dog but they are just getting a cross breed a mongrel but paying top end prices
The public have been conned by a cute name
The same happens with tea cup pets, the smallest horse, the most floppy rag doll cat
It’s fooling the public and harming the animals and people fall for it, so more are bred and higher prices change hands it’s a business and a dirty business

People won't be able to buy what isn't for sale.
How to stop the sellers is another issue, I realise, but it has to start somewhere.

Monkeyworld rescue is full of "pet" monkeys, which people really do love, but eventually they realise it is cruel.

Things need a bit of a shove in the right direction sometimes.

Why do you think that? I don't think that people are as daft or as easily conned as you suggest. I know people with cross-breeds such as you describe, and they know perfectly well what they are getting, and have chosen the new breed for very good reasons (eg labradoodles don't shed hair so are good pets for asthmatics). Also, after the first cross breeding, the dogs are often bred with other crosses, so they are a breed of their own.

There is no such thing as a 'natural' dog (well, maybe a wolf, but they don't make good pets ). 'Purebred' cocker spaniels and poodles are every bit as created as the cockapoo they can produce between them. If two second generation cockapoos breed they are as much a pedigree as their ancestors. If anything, those who believe that 'purebred' dogs are somehow more intrinsically valuable than 'crossbreds' are the ones being conned - they are all just dogs.

Sorry - that was to BlueBelle.

Yes, all just dogs, but some are overbred to the extent that it impacts their health.

Bluddy Norah
Just when I'd posted my succinct little reply

pretty much all pet dogs are pedigree now

I'm horrified. I've had a few dogs, all collie crossed with something else and all lovely dogs.

The man who first bred the doodle called it a Frankenstein breed and regretted ever breeding it.
I have many, many friends with versions of this breed, doodle, cavapoo etc and I hate to say it but I can’t bear them. Destructive, yappy, bad mannered, zero recall, and one friends wife bought because of the ‘hypo allergenic’ claim which turns out to be rubbish. As their are no breed standards as they are just mongrels, you might get a puppy that takes after the poodle or the spaniel/Labrador etc which are not hypoallergenic.

Same with temperament, two working dogs bred together creates a dog with the worst of both breeds in health and temperament , and far to much for the owners I know and see at the park that can’t control their hyper crazed dogs. I don’t know how many times I’ve had them jump on me, run out at me as they aren’t lead trained etc. A family member is a dog trainer and won’t take on any doodle type breed which says it all really. He says the owners sadly are as annoying as the dogs. ?
They seem to attract first time dogs owners that go for the look rather than suitability to the owners lifestyle and experience.
I disagree with a poster who said there isn’t any harm in dogs having brachycephalic surgery, having seen a friends frenchie have this surgery I was shocked it is legal to breed dogs that require surgery for the fundamental need to breathe.
Rant over. My family are all very doggie and this issue winds me up.

Crossbreeds are a deliberate breeding of 2 breeds. Mongrels are an unknown mix of breeds. Crossbreeds are capable of having a written heritage if they are bred by 2 pedigrees whereas you couldn't do that with a mongrel. There is a huge difference and it is only snobbery that makes people decry a crossbreed with a name they deem ridiculous. As with all things, people pay their money and take their choice. If you choose to fall into the trap of paying the highest price for a dog where you don't know its heritage, then more fool you.

Agreed, ichtb. It's really insulting to think that people are stupid enough to be taken in by any of this. Anyone knowing anything about dogs knows what they are buying, and responsible newcomers to dog ownership will do their research.

MissA

DillytheGardener, again, it comes down to knowing what you are doing. If you buy a first generation crossbreed you won't get a non-allergenic coat. If, OTOH, you go for a 3rd gen or higher, and if you have the sense to see the parents and choose the puppy carefully, then the chances are very strong that you will.

The nature/nurture debate around temperament is as fraught with dogs as it is with people. There are no guarantees there either, whether you get a so-called 'pure-bred', a cross or a mongrel, and in any case much comes down to the owner and how the dog is trained.

Can you suggest where a potential dog owner could go to get a mongrel? Someone who doesn't want a rescue dog, but a puppy that they can train themselves, and who doesn't come with the potential to have behaviour problems caused by irresponsible owners, that is? If you can, I will happily pass this information to my son and DIL, who are considering dog ownership and are still at the beginning of the research stage of their search.

I do think you have a responsibility as a potential owner of any animal to ensure that the breeder is breeding healthy animals, and so refuse to buy any animal with genetic issues due entirely to breeding.

Many breeds have issues.

So an example would be Cairn Terriers. They have liver shunt issues.

So we have a cairn and our research before deciding showed what genetic issues cairn may have. I asked for a vet certificate from the breeder to ensure that he was clear of this issue.

Customers/potential owners are just as responsible for the animals dreadful suffering if they continue to buy these dogs.

I had a conversation with our vet over crossbreeds. I thought naively that any genetic issues would be “bred out” of crossbreeds, and the issue solved.

Not so, in fact they can end up with both breeds issues, plus they apparently often have behavioural problems.

Her opinion was that cross breeds are produced purely for their looks, zero thought has been given to the health of the dogs and their behaviour traits.

I wasn’t trying to insult you doodle I m sure your family did your research and are happy with your little dog and of course you love it with health problems and all but so many people don’t do research they hear about this wonderful new breed with a cute name and just like fashion it grows and grows so ‘everyone’ has to have a doodle dog and thousands of pounds start changing hands so they are breed to be smaller, curlier, flatter
It’s simply fashion

Where to get a mongrel apart from a rescue centre? This will probably be very difficult as everyone is selling mongrels under a fancy name for lots of money ?
The huge money and breeders greed has changed dog owning
My last beautiful kind dog was a ‘mistake’ and bought for a big bag of sweets for their kids, those days obviously long gone

Can you believe the amount of money that is changing hands thousands per dog and we are in the middle of people not having enough money to eat or pay for electricity and the more we buy the more will be bred it has to stop

Doodledogs can suffer because they look like Disney designed them. The myths include, they don’t shed, they’re easy to train, they’re great with children, they’re always healthier than pedigrees, to name but a few.
The main concern I have is the huge increase in dog ownership, triggered by lockdown. The Doodle and other breed charities are struggling to manage the number of dogs relinquished. Add to that the fact many came from first time dog owners with little idea how to look after them.

I’m not sure how to achieve it but, we do need more regulation on breeding. Commercial and hobby breeders put any poodle to any spaniel or lab and sell the puppies for three times what reputable breeders ask. Hobby breeders often don’t understand you should health check the previous 5 generations as well as the parent dogs to ensure breed specific health problems are minimised or ruled out. These puppy farms aka small commercial breeders don’t care about such things. Sadly many prospective owners have no idea, do no research before seeing a cuddly puppy and bringing it home

One of the best dogs I ever shared my life with was a labradoodle. I was her 4th owner by 5 months of age. She she’d fur, was highly intelligent but had the standard poodle independence so I’d to work to convince her I was running the show. She taught me more about training a dog with a high prey urge than I ever thought I’d need to know. Doodles- not for the faint hearted.

As well as regulating breeders, which shouldn’t be impossible, we need a better educated public. Dogs need owners who understand their breed, their needs. All owners should commit to training groups, not just puppy ‘socialisation’.

If all breeders bred to the Breed Standard as accepted worldwide there would not be the problems there are. Unfortunately some want to forget the standard and breed extremes. Many of these problems come from non Kennel Club "breeders" who are only about making money. There is no check on what they are breeding. If judges in the show ring award the extreme version of any breed then they are part of the problem.

I agree, BlueBelle that the prices for puppies is astronomical. That encourages owners to get their money back by breeding their pets without experience or knowledge, which adds to the problems.

Oscar is probably a case in point. My daughter researched how to avoid puppy farms, saw the mum with the pups, visited more than once etc, but he still had serious health issues. I would prefer regulation to banning, though, as I don’t see how we can ban all dogs with built in problems. Would you ban Labradors, for instance? They have hip and other issues because of over-breeding.

Like Iam, our best dog was a Labradoodle (hence my name ). Far from being hyperactive or neurotic, he was really chilled - we used to say he was a Zen dog). There are so many generalisations on this thread, and when you (generic, not you personally) are talking about much loved pets people are going to get defensive when they are told they are cruel and irresponsible.

I suspect that regulation will come in soon, which I will support; but I will not support banning breeds. I don’t think that will happen anyway, though - it would open a massive can of worms.

For a moment there I thought you were talking about one of your politicians. I am sure there are a few flat faced dogs amongst them who should probably be banned.