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the law as it stands on sex - part 3

(338 Posts)
Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 09:11:32

Two thousand posts so far!

To pick up where we left off, I’ll repeat my post from the end of the last thread - I got home too late to get any answers or many comments. I’ll keep the formatting to make it easier to bold, but will lost the bold type or italics:

I’ve been out this evening, so am just catching up with the thread, and have a few questions, if that’s ok.

trisher, you seem to find a lot of this funny, but I don’t see it like that at all.

What was the point of the ‘spot the transwoman’ game?

As Galaxy says, you are quick to label others, and I wouldn’t have thought being called an ‘ally’ would have struck you as offensive, but if you don’t like it I will try to remember not to use it in relation to you. Perhaps you would remember that many people on here (me included) find ‘cis’ offensive, and would return the favour?

I also see myself as someone who believes in human rights and equality. I posted the Amnesty list of human rights on this very thread, after VS insisted that the human rights of transpeople were being abused. I asked which ones were being denied, but there was no response from either of you.

Human rights are very important to me, but I really don’t think that being allowed to undress in front of the opposite sex is a human right, and can’t see anything on the Amnesty list that is being denied to transpeople. If you think otherwise, please state which ones they are, and I’ll reconsider.

VS, You say:
Thats exactly what was said any time anyone asked for their rights... Others complained it violated theirs. It didn't and it doesn't
Can you please explain what you mean by that? I see it trotted out a lot, but nobody who repeats it has explained how it relates to the following situations:
Where there are people whose rights to undress in a single sex environment is violated by people asking for the right to use that environment as members of the opposite sex.

Where people want the right to compete fairly in a sport that they have trained for for years, but that right is violated by those who have stronger and differently proportioned bodies insisting on competing against them.

When people want the right to have agency over who touches them intimately but that right is violated by someone who does not declare their male sex to female patients/clients.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts, as I do see those things as violations of the rights of one group of people by another.

Also, what is it that you think that legislation has dealt with fairly, please?

FarNorth Sun 24-Apr-22 01:00:56

Here is a very informative article about the situation of women prisoners forced to share accommodation with male prisoners who claim to be women.

archive.ph/2x9vQ

"what shocked me the most was when she told me in a completely matter-of-fact voice, we have to call them ‘she’ and use their female names and if we don’t we get a punishment. Even the ones who are sexual offenders?! Yes. Even the ones who show off their penises in the shower with you?! Yes. If we don’t we get a punishment."

Rosie51 Sun 24-Apr-22 00:09:54

grin

Chewbacca Sat 23-Apr-22 23:16:23

Love it Rosie51! I'll give you......

Chewbacca Sat 23-Apr-22 23:13:32

The really dumb thing about all this Doodledog is that the Stonewall, TRAs and their allies just cannot see that their dogmatic insistence that EVERYONE must shove up, make room, adjust your lives to make space for them has been completely counter productive. A huge amount of harm has been caused to children, young people, the abused and mentally fragile, women, gays, lesbians..... not to mention the ordinary trans person in the street who just wants to live his life in peace. Stonewall has a LOT to answer for. But, the tide is slowly turning because 6 months ago, that article would never have been published and Hilary Cass was being denounced as a transphobe; but she's being listened to now.

I'm glad that these threads have been available to be used as a repository for the exchanges of information and data; and have allowed people, who perhaps hadn't realised how Stonewall's dogma is affecting everyone, in every day life, to voice their concerns. The only joke hmm is that there are still those who cannot see that they've alienated a huge swathe of society with their aggressive manipulations.

Rosie51 Sat 23-Apr-22 23:08:44

I'm not sure the text is readable, it says:
The fact that society believes a man who says he's a woman, instead of a woman who says he's not, is proof that society knows exactly who is the man and who is the woman.

Rosie51 Sat 23-Apr-22 23:04:43

I'll just leave this here.

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 22:40:21

That makes such a lot of sense.

It’s tragic, really. Why can’t people stop meddling, and let others live their lives? Telling people that they should, or even can, become a member of the opposite sex is cruel, as it just isn’t possible, and of course it has implications for sexuality as well as reinforcing gender norms and expectations.

There is an obvious political agenda in all this, and there are confused and unhappy people being used as cannon fodder.

Chewbacca Sat 23-Apr-22 21:44:18

From Newsweek 21.04.2022 warning: this is a long read with a lot of words

There is a frightening new version of homophobia pervading the U.S., disguised as, of all things, "LGBTQ" activism. For adult gay people like me, it's clear that this activism does not advance our equality, but in fact compromises our ability to live peacefully in society. In fact, it is threatening our very existence.

I first became aware of this new homophobia in the summer of 2017, when I interned at a major LGBTQ-rights organization. That January, I had enrolled at Columbia University to complete my undergraduate degree, a goal I had been postponing for over a decade. After volunteering for Maryland's marriage equality campaign and a subsequent transgender rights legislation campaign, my aspiration was to become a social justice writer and activist.
My excitement about the internship quickly gave way to a nauseating mixture of fear and shame. I was, I quickly learned, not the right kind of "queer." I was just another "cis" (short for "cisgender," a word I had never even heard until it was assigned to me, typically as a slur) gay male—in other words, a privileged and unevolved relic of the past. After all, I had my rights—the right to marry, the right to serve openly in the military, the right to assimilate into this oppressive, "cisheteronormative," patriarchal society. It was time to make way for a new generation of "queer," one that had very little to do with sex-based rights and more to do with abolishing the concepts of sex and sexuality altogether.

At the time, I was exhausting so much mental energy memorizing my coworkers' pronouns and all of the new progressive dogmas out of fear that I would be fiercely condemned if I slipped up, I had none left to think critically or to question where any of these dogmas had even come from. Thankfully, and somewhat serendipitously, the following semester I enrolled in a class called U.S. Lesbian and Gay History, led by the prominent gay historian George Chauncey. It was there that the culture I had encountered at my internship—and, of course, on Columbia's uber-progressive and exceedingly "queer" campus—began to make sense.

In that class, I learned about queer theory, an obscure academic discipline based largely on the writing of the late French intellectual Michel Foucault, who believed that society categorizes people—male or female, heterosexual or homosexual—in order to oppress them. The solution is to intentionally blur—or "queer"—the boundaries of these categories. Soon this "queering" became the predominant method of discussing and analyzing gender and sexuality in universities.
With the proliferation of social media, which disseminates ideological dogma faster than any religious institution in history, academics-cum-activists can reduce these theories into palatable, easy-to-digest-and-regurgitate maxims, especially on platforms like Twitter, Tumblr and now TikTok. Which is how, suddenly, we have a massive uptick in trans- and "non-binary"-identifying youth. Queer theorists insist that subverting the categorizations which have been imposed upon young people—for example, the sex they were "assigned" at birth—is the ultimate expression of autonomy, and further, the key to liberating society from a system devised largely, so they claim, by cisgender white men. (Never mind the scientific and cultural achievements of women and racial minorities.)

This might not be a concern if, by adopting these new identities, young people were merely playing with the boundaries of normative gender expression—something that gays, lesbians, feminists, most liberals and even many conservatives would welcome two decades into the 21st century. But many young boys do not stop at simply painting their fingernails and wearing dresses, and young girls do more than cut their hair short and play football. With increasing frequency, these children are given drugs to block their puberty, cross-sex hormones and irreversible surgeries, all the while cheered on first by online communities, then the mainstream media and now the current presidential administration.

In rare instances, medicalization is the proper path for gender-nonconforming youth, in particular those whose gender dysphoria—a "marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and their assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months," as the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5 defines it—originated very early in life, causes acute mental distress and shows no signs of ceasing without medical intervention. But according to the 10 major follow-up studies on youth gender dysphoria to date, the vast majority (as much as 85 percent) end up desisting during or after puberty—that is, they become comfortable with their biological sex and no longer wish to identify as the opposite sex.

And what else did these studies find? That the vast majority identified as gay, lesbian or bisexual in adulthood. Even without these studies, most gays and lesbians could have told you as much. Gender-nonconformity, after all, is a very common experience for most of us during childhood. I, for one, was relentlessly bullied in grade school for my femininity. "Are you a boy or a girl?" the kids would taunt, when they hadn't already flung that oh-so-effective six-letter F-word at me. As a child, spinning around in my older sisters' flowery skirts, I often imagined myself as a girl, too. Even in adulthood, I occasionally, though not often, think of myself as the opposite sex, an experience I speculate is common for gay men. After all, our inherent disposition gives us the benefit of perceiving life through a dual-gendered lens. But I have grown up to be a well-adjusted, successful, even masculine man, comfortable in his sex and, at long last—and despite the long-term effects of bullying and of a childhood spent in anti-gay religious fundamentalism—with my homosexuality.

Sure, the religious far right remains something of a threat, and I, like any other gay person, can still be stung by anti-gay slurs and can fear the threat of violence in less-accepting spaces. But today I am equally fearful of the radical activists I once longed to emulate, activists who push a regressive, anti-liberal agenda that reifies gender stereotypes, downplays the seriousness of long-term medicalization and ultimately seeks to abolish my identity—for without biological sex, there is no homosexuality. Today, the least-accepting spaces for people like me are, of all places, the halls of LGBT rights organizations, where the threat might not be violence but is nevertheless terrible stigmatization and shame.

www.newsweek.com/new-homophobia-opinion-1698969

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 21:22:11

Mollygo

^I promise not to go into a man's toilet, changing room, next hospital bed, refuge or prison cell and I definitely won't compete against him in any sport or give him an intimate physical examination.^

I promise not to do any of those things either.

I’m in grin

Mollygo Sat 23-Apr-22 21:21:08

I promise not to go into a man's toilet, changing room, next hospital bed, refuge or prison cell and I definitely won't compete against him in any sport or give him an intimate physical examination.

I promise not to do any of those things either.

Chewbacca Sat 23-Apr-22 21:01:37

we are being unkind, intolerant, phobic. Well, if that's the spin being put on standing up for my right to not have a penis haver in the toilets, changing rooms, next hospital bed, carrying out an intimate physical examination, refuge, prison cell or running in a competition against me........ I'll own that. And in return, I promise not to go into a man's toilet, changing room, next hospital bed, refuge or prison cell and I definitely won't compete against him in any sport or give him an intimate physical examination. wink

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 20:38:19

Chewbacca

The poster explicitly demands young women not to question any male in their bathroom. So young women, away from home for the first time, on a huge university campus, are actually instructed not query why a man is in the toilets. It goes even further; she should seek to protect him! The fact that he's likely to be bigger, stronger and faster than she is is, apparently a moot point.

WOMAN! BE QUIET! SIT DOWN! MOVE OVER! A MAN WANTS YOUR SPACE!

That’s the message of a lot of it, isn’t it? Let men run against you in a race you can’t possibly win. Let them join the all-woman shortlist for a boardroom role, or into the groups that have been formed to encourage girls to study STEM subjects, or into the girls’ dorms on school trips, so some parents will keep their daughters at home - it goes on and on.

But our rights are not being violated - we are being unkind, intolerant, phobic.

Mollygo Sat 23-Apr-22 20:16:55

My great niece is at Plymouth Uni. I’m not sure what she thinks about this, but if she meets the situation, my nephew will be in Face Time ranting about it!

Chewbacca Sat 23-Apr-22 19:52:38

The poster explicitly demands young women not to question any male in their bathroom. So young women, away from home for the first time, on a huge university campus, are actually instructed not query why a man is in the toilets. It goes even further; she should seek to protect him! The fact that he's likely to be bigger, stronger and faster than she is is, apparently a moot point.

WOMAN! BE QUIET! SIT DOWN! MOVE OVER! A MAN WANTS YOUR SPACE!

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 19:39:50

How typical that a male in a women's toilet needs to be protected from harm but the women can sort themselves out if that male means them harm. Still a long way to go......
Yes, it’s maddening, isn’t it? But our rights are not being violated, no siree.

Mollygo Sat 23-Apr-22 19:21:09

Rosie51

Doodledog I'd say the three examples you give are proof positive that rather than Thats exactly what was said any time anyone asked for their rights... Others complained it violated theirs. It didn't and it doesn't they do violate women's rights.

We've been told before that there are exemptions that can be enforced but then rather gleefully........ you'll never be able to enforce them.

On the subject of sport we're told transwomen shouldn't be excluded because there are some black women who have suffered from racist ideas. We are told to rectify the complex problems of racial stereotyping before we rectify the simple problem of men competing unfairly against women.

If we require a female attendant (not a transwoman) to perform an intimate examination on us we should ask for a 'cis woman/female' compelling use of a word many of us consider offensive.
And on it goes.

VS I’m not sure why you object to being quoted. Either you posted the text below or you didn’t.

Thats exactly what was said any time anyone asked for their rights... Others complained it violated theirs. It didn't and it doesn't
My records show that you did, and that I asked for an explanation of the text and how it related to 3 Situations where females feel their rights are being violated.

Many females are indeed working to stop this happening.
You say
It seems very obvious that whatever ways are suggested, by those who accept trans women as women, to resolve issues are not good enough for whatever reason…

The whatever reason is that the solutions offered, always seem to involve TW doing what they want and AHF women allowing that.

Let’s take requesting a female for an intimate examination.
I have been told on this thread (part1&2) that it’s discriminatory to ask TW to reveal their sex,
as a reason for allowing TW to appear to do the examination.

That’s not a solution to the issue, it’s just an opportunity for a TW to exhibit dishonest behaviour.

I’ve been told on this thread, (part1&2) that a poster “has been examined intimately by many men and *they didn’t mind”*
as a reason for allowing a male to appear to do the examination.

That’s not a solution to the issue. That’s just an example of personal preference AND
examination by someone you know is a male is one thing. Examination by someone purporting to be female is totally different!

So would you agree that requiring a TW to be honest and not arrive to do intimate examinations when a female has been requested, is an acceptable solution?

Or is dishonesty acceptable behaviour for TW?

Chewbacca Sat 23-Apr-22 19:13:56

Diamond My grandson attends Plymouth Uni, and the toilets are now gender neutral, with attached sign on the doors.

I've just read about this in the Mail online and I'm sorry to say that it surprises me not one bit.

Female students at the University of Plymouth have been told not to confront anyone they suspect of posing as a woman in their toilets - and instead 'protect them from harm'.
Signs in both male and female lavatories around its buildings contain the warning posters branded with the pink, blue and white strips of the trans flag.

But critics have branded the move 'repellent gaslighting' and questioned why a third toilet space could not be created instead.

How typical that a male in a women's toilet needs to be protected from harm but the women can sort themselves out if that male means them harm. Still a long way to go......

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 19:10:22

Hi, VS!

Who quoted you? I was very careful not to, and I haven’t seen anyone else doing it either.

The thing is, (and if anyone feels I am misrepresenting their view they will let me know), we don’t feel that it is our place to work on resolutions to problems we didn’t cause. Maybe the transpeople could do that? Or men? Or how about the allies? If an idea pops into my head I’d be happy to share it, but otherwise I’d rather just be able to get on with my life, thanks, without having to worry about people violating my rights, and those of my daughters/granddaughters/friends.

I’d also rather not be gaslighted into thinking that there would be no violations of women’s rights if we stood back and let the Stonewall agenda hold sway, as we all know that’s not the case, don’t we?

VioletSky Sat 23-Apr-22 19:06:03

Good advice, thank you

Zoejory Sat 23-Apr-22 19:02:47

VioletSky

An easy way to leave a thread is not to look at it at all. Then you won't feel the need to keep saying you're not engaging with the thread when it's more than obvious you are.

Rosie51 Sat 23-Apr-22 19:01:45

I must have missed the resolutions that respected women's rights in those few areas we're bothered about. There are only problems where a minority of transwomen refuse to respect women's rights to single sex spaces, sports and agency over who examines them intimately. If all transwomen showed that respect to women then this whole area of conflict would just fade away.

Chewbacca Sat 23-Apr-22 18:53:36

grin

VioletSky Sat 23-Apr-22 18:24:32

As I have been quoted once again...

It seems very obvious that whatever ways are suggested, by those who accept trans women as women, to resolve issues are not good enough for whatever reason...

Perhaps you could all now work on resolving said issues yourselves instead of simpky highlighting examples of those issues.

Within the law and while respecting the rights of trans people.

Best of luck

Doodledog Sat 23-Apr-22 18:24:27

The way I see it, there aren’t many areas where transwomen would find themselves unwelcome. If someone wants to live quietly (or noisily for that matter!) and be accepted amongst groups of women, all they need to do is not go into a line of work that involves intimate examinations, not compete against women in sport, and be sensitive about where they undress. There may be other things I’ve forgotten, but on the whole, unless, like India Willoughby, they want to ‘make a point’, it would be easy enough to just get on with life. I can’t help feeling that ‘some people’ do want to make the point that they can find ways to have power over women, and are using the trans cause as a means of doing so.

Rosie51 Sat 23-Apr-22 18:13:59

Doodledog I'd say the three examples you give are proof positive that rather than Thats exactly what was said any time anyone asked for their rights... Others complained it violated theirs. It didn't and it doesn't they do violate women's rights.

We've been told before that there are exemptions that can be enforced but then rather gleefully........ you'll never be able to enforce them.

On the subject of sport we're told transwomen shouldn't be excluded because there are some black women who have suffered from racist ideas. We are told to rectify the complex problems of racial stereotyping before we rectify the simple problem of men competing unfairly against women.

If we require a female attendant (not a transwoman) to perform an intimate examination on us we should ask for a 'cis woman/female' compelling use of a word many of us consider offensive.
And on it goes.