Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

It's such a fine line to tread on emotive subjects like these - between being emphatic about your belief, and insulting someone with that emphasis - and possibly not actually meaning to cause offence.

And that is the problem with social media. The written word is taken at face value in a way the spoken word in a physical group is not, when you can see the person you're communicating with, and there is space and time to clarify or qualify what you say.

But, compared to some other SM sites, GN is, generally speaking, a model of restraint and civility. At least, that's my experience.

I'm delighted it hit where it was meant to Iam64 and it's meaning was fully understood.

I didn’t see your post Mollygo so can’t comment. I did see Chewbacca’s, should I be ashamed to say it made me smile.

Sorry if I touched a nerve there. I’ll just go back to posting that gender is a social construct and sex is immutable then. (Re title) and watching out for further derailments.

Oh dear someone's finger was on the report button. It's amazing the insulting posts that are left to stand, and the mildly comic ones get deleted. Still if we don't report the insulting ones they get to stand for all to see.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

GG13 only popped to her local shop, she hasn’t flounced (she hasn’t got the energy to do so ?)

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

iam64 agrees with Rosie, Galaxy and Doodledog.
iam64 isn’t ironing her flouncing frock and plans to stay even though it’s making her head ache

We could start a trend of posting in the third person.
I need to announce my departure. I need to do some work .
I once spent a whole day debating this issue with Trisher whilst arguing on another thread about how productive home working was

Rosie agrees with Galaxy and Doodledog.

Rosie is also reminded of a meme she saw elsewhere that read

"This is not an airport there is no need to announce your departure"

Galaxy

Galaxy wishes that people who know absolutely zero about the issues involved will stop telling people they are bigots. I mean at least try and be original.
I think you missed out the word witches though.

Doodledog thinks that Galaxy is talking sense.

trisher I see you fail to answer your own question about which is worse. I pointed out the unequal disadvantages, in one case one athlete disadvantaged, in the other many, many athletes disadvantaged. In the US college system a scholarship is the only way many people can access a college education. Sporting scholarships are at a premium and especially those for women. You don't seem to care that natal males who transition deny a female a sporting scholarship.

Whilst simultaneously condemning a transwomen who has simply taken the application of drugs and surgery to another level. Lia Thomas has lowered their testosterone levels but not had any surgery. Lia has made fellow team mates uncomfortable in the communal locker room where they strip off naked.

It seems it is OK to medicate a woman in some circumstances but not in others. I have no idea what you mean by this. Lia Thomas isn't a woman Lia Thomas is a transwoman with an adult male body and advantage. Lia holds records that if it were Mo Farrah would be the equivalent of being record holder at 400m 1500m and 5000m. Lia made the choice to take medication in order to swim against women. Lia could still swim against men if Lia wished, even as a transwoman, although of course Lia would go back to not winning.

@ DWP

I nearly had a heart attack this morning as I received a letter from the court of protection without warning (I am sure they used to warn you)

volver

Why did she call herself JK Rowling and not Jo?

Because boys are less likely to read books written by a woman; whereas girls are more open minded.

This was the actual reason - not my opinion.
But as an ex Teacher of Reading I would concur.

(Apologies if this has already been mentioned; I’m only just wading through the thread.
While on hold to the DWP )

Galaxy wishes that people who know absolutely zero about the issues involved will stop telling people they are bigots. I mean at least try and be original.
I think you missed out the word witches though.

Rosie51

With regards to Caster Semenya and the dsd she has, she is unable to compete at some distances because her testosterone levels (from her internal testes) are those in the male range giving her an unfair advantage, not because she is black. The 46XY dsd is not specific to black people, a white athlete with the same testosterone levels and dsd would also encounter the same restrictions. Caster has the option of going for the longer race, suppressing her testosterone levels or deciding not to compete. Of course if we had an open category for men and women to participate in that would solve the problem at a stroke.

There are some major mistakes and preconceptions in this
Firstly naturally occurring testosterone has never been tested or shown to give any advantage in compettetive sports. Articficial testosterone does and is banned as a substance.
Secondly Caster Semenya has taken the drug necessary to reduce her levels and had awful side effects.
Thirdly there are only black athletes involved in these bans, the probability that white athletes might be tested doesn't mean the policy isn't racist.
Fourthly the testosterone test was only introduced after CS had passed numerous attempts to rule her out of competetive sport including intimate body examinations.
I am amazed that any woman could fail to see the absolute sexism and racism that has and still exists in women's sport, and would fail to support a woman who has always been a woman, who is expected to change and alter her natural body functions to compete, and put up with terrible side effects to do so.
Whilst simultaneously condemning a transwomen who has simply taken the application of drugs and surgery to another level.
It seems it is OK to medicate a woman in some circumstances but not in others.

Just listen to yourselves.

Volver's mocking traumatised women. Volver's cruel and misogynistic. Volver's blaming women.
Volver thinks we’re silly little women.
Volver is supporting the patriarchy.
Volver thinks disabled women aren’t worth anything.
Volver’s just having a bit of fun, volver’s a liar.

Volver actually thinks people should stop obsessing over what other people call themselves and just get on with it. Volver actually thinks that people who get in a pickle over whether lesbians can have penises and whether they can be called homophobic aren’t doing the cause any good at all. Volver’s been a feminist for a good 50 years and isn’t going to be told by anybody that she supports the patriarchy or any of the rest of it.

Volver wishes some people could see that general haranguing and inability to see that they are objectionable bigots doesn’t do any good at all.

Volver’s not coming on any more trans threads, ever. They are peopled with posters who won’t listen to anybody else’s opinion and will no doubt have another go now.

Just listen to yourselves. Pitchforks and burning torches.

With regards to Caster Semenya and the dsd she has, she is unable to compete at some distances because her testosterone levels (from her internal testes) are those in the male range giving her an unfair advantage, not because she is black. The 46XY dsd is not specific to black people, a white athlete with the same testosterone levels and dsd would also encounter the same restrictions. Caster has the option of going for the longer race, suppressing her testosterone levels or deciding not to compete. Of course if we had an open category for men and women to participate in that would solve the problem at a stroke.

trisher can you state clearly whether you see it as acceptable to have Lia competing as a woman just because s/he claims to be one.
Why not separate categories, male/female/trans ?
Please leave race out of this. Conflating the two muddies the waters

VioletSky

Dickens thanks, I'm not good at explaining myself sometimes I think.

It's like if there were 2 dating profiles and I was in the preferences section:

1. I'm looking for a man, 18 to 30, good sense of humour, enjoys being outdoors and physical activity, loves dogs and going on adventures.

2. I don't date women, old people, people who sit around watching tele, overweight people or people who like cats and are boring..

I know that's a out there but profiles like the second one exist and are very very off putting because they don't sound like nice people.

Under the circumstances you've illustrated - a dating site - the second 'preference' is indeed unnecessary.

But I'm talking about a different scenario. And I think you know that.

Posted too soon. The whole transwomen in sport issue could be resolved by having a female only category and an open category. Of course Lia Thomas wasn't such a hot shot when competing against males.

volver If you are in a vulnerable position and are not happy with how you are being treated, scream the place down says it all and perfectly encapsulates the attitudes of so many. Apparently unable to imagine what it's like and unable to empathise with what it is to be vulnerable, to be in an abusive relationship, to be disabled. To blame vulnerable people for not screaming loudly enough is the lowest of the low.

trisher Which is worse competing and being beaten by a transwomen or not being permitted to compete at all because of a natural function of your woman's body? well you tell us, although I would point out that a transwoman who wins every race is disadvantaging many other women each and every time they compete, and the records they set are beyond the reach of any female. Lia Thomas beat the second place swimmer by almost 40 seconds, unheard of in competitive swimming.

Blimey! What a minefield this issue is. I am scared to talk to anyone in case I get the pronoun wrong or inadvertently offend anyone.