Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

You don't have to join in Mollygo. I'm not suggesting you don't. Just... Royal Family springs to mind. They proliferate too.

On Nettiquette It says We take a dim view of . . . rehashing old arguments.
How on Earth are any of us still allowed to post on threads like these, or even keep starting new ones on the same subject thinly disguised under a new title?
Just asking.

Diamond Lily We all need the approval of other people to a greater or lesser extent, no matter what we say. There are studies of children who have been starved of attention that show they are deeply mentally damaged by it.

For me the defining factor is biology. Gender is a social construct.

DiamondLily

Does anyone really care how others label them?

What does it matter? Do we need the approval of others?

As an older person, I don't care. I probably would have done when I was young. I think as we age, we rise above it, or at least, I have. But I'm not trying to 'be' anything in particular. Man, woman, inbetween, I'm not bothered what anyone else thinks.

Gender is a linguistic device. Sex is biological. The two should not be confused.

FarNorth
Indeed.
The label 'cis' is being applied to women who are criticised as privileged bigots if they object to it.
Surely not. Who could possibly be that rude? I don’t know anybody like that I’m thankful to say.

Does anyone really care how others label them?

What does it matter? Do we need the approval of others?

GagaJo

If you don't self label, you will be labelled. In either a micro or macro capacity. LGBTQ learned this very early on.

Societies work that way. No matter how much we may try to view ourselves as individuals, we are always part of a range of categories.

Indeed.
The label 'cis' is being applied to women who are criticised as privileged bigots if they object to it.

VioletSky

trisher the transgender wing would also protect trans women from discriminatory women.

Sadly that's a need at the moment

The percentage of male people claiming to be women, in the prison population, is much higher than that in the general male population.
Might it be that some of them are not acting in good faith and do not really believe they are women?
Why do some people want to accept the word of every male person who says he's a woman?

Even if the male person genuinely believes he is a woman, he actually is not.
Just as he is not Napoleon or Jesus, which some may claim to be.

That being the case, women prisoners should never have male people locked in with them.

bigging, not bugging ? ?

GagaJo

Yes of course DD. Not caring about how you're labelled is a totally different matter

Well that depends on who's doing the labelling, doesn't it? If they have a vested interest in doing down your reputation (or if your interest is in bugging it up), or if you are selling something, or marketing a brand then yes - get in first and seize the agenda.

But if you're just pootling about the Internet, thinking what you like and not slavishly following a point of view, then why should anyone care? It's not a competition (is it?)

Yes of course DD. Not caring about how you're labelled is a totally different matter

If you don't self label, you will be labelled. In either a micro or macro capacity. LGBTQ learned this very early on.

Societies work that way. No matter how much we may try to view ourselves as individuals, we are always part of a range of categories.

Feminists can also support other groups without having to label themselves.
Or care about 'letting themselves' be labelled by others ?.

This is exactly what I was getting at earlier (lost track of which thread as so many were started at once). All the labelling and 'my team's better than your team' stuff is reminiscent of Monty Python.

Some people do not need a qualifying adjective, or even two qualifying adjectives, some people just are feminist. They care about and support women(AHF), regardless of race, colour or creed.
Feminists can also support other groups without having to label themselves.

Mollygo

So you would provide a trans wing to protect trans whilst removing safe spaces from women.
I suppose that sort of logic reflects intersectional feminism.
Feminists who don’t need a qualifying adjective have never said trans should not have safe spaces for trans.

The adjective given by sociologists to 2nd wave feminists was white liberal feminists. Better to pick your own label than let someone label you as exclusionist.

Males can be female. Lie
Sex can be changed. Lie

These are the only seriously untrue statements on all these threads.
All the other tedious ‘if’ statements do nothing to protect either women or transgender people.

Mollygo if that's also directed at me that's yet another untrue statement. I've never advocated for women to lose safe spaces when needed.

So you would provide a trans wing to protect trans whilst removing safe spaces from women.
I suppose that sort of logic reflects intersectional feminism.
Feminists who don’t need a qualifying adjective have never said trans should not have safe spaces for trans.

trisher the transgender wing would also protect trans women from discriminatory women.

Sadly that's a need at the moment

And of course, the even fuller picture is the violence and abuse that Trans people have to live with.

Acknowledging both sides is vital.

Regrettable as the recent attacks may be they do not show the full picture which has been peaceful and accepting.
Thank you for that post trisher. Many on here have acknowledged that few men or transwomen caused harm either in the past or even now.
The problem is that the full picture shows abuse, attacks, and damaging effects by some transgender people on females now. However small the number of attacks doesn’t make it less important.
I hope you’d agree that we must have things in place to prevent this potential abuse and give females the protection to which they ought to be entitled. Saying it shouldn’t happen is no protection.

So at least we agree on prisons, then.

Yes, men should pipe up if they feel their privacy is being invaded.
They are much more likely to be heeded than women so perhaps something would then be done to ensure privacy, dignity and safety for all.

Single cubicles with sinks would be best.
I'm surprised you haven't complained about the discrimination involved in those being provided only to people with disabilities, trisher.

Galaxy

So do you think transmen should be placed in male prisons for exampe trisher?

No I think prisons are absolutely appallingly run and there shoud be a complete over haul of the system . But at present I think the only solution for transpeople is a trangender wing. and seperate facilities for transmen and transwomen.