Do you feel comfortable poaching health staff from the Philippines

Well it certainly costs the UK a lot of money to train doctors- I can assure you the yearly fees only covers a very small proportion. But 'cost' can be counted in very many ways- not just pecuniary.

When UK doctors choose to go to work in countries with better facilities, conditions and salaries elsewhere- it costs the country in much bigger ways than money- a shortage, which costs lives- and puts even more pressure on doctors and nurses- a vicious circle.

“Surely this is even so when doctors and nurses are trained at very high cost by poor countries”

I’ll keep on saying it. Maybe eventually it’ll sink in.

Medical training in these countries is private. It costs the poor Country nothing.

EllanVannin

I was about to say what JenniferEccles has said. Nobody holds a gun to their heads. If they didn't wish to come here then they won't. It's their choice entirely.

That does not mean they are not 'poached' aka encouraged to come ad work here instead of putting back into their own country. There are professional agencies going to all those countries and having very hard active drives to induce them, often with all sorts of incentives which are hard to resist.

But his has always happened. And is happening everywhere. At the moment many British trained doctors are escaping the UK where conditions are so hard and stressfull and workloads massive- for much better conditions ad pay in the EU, and particularly in Switzerland. Do you think it is fair that the UK should lose such valueable doctors when there is such a shortage?

Surely this is even more so when doctors and nurses are trained at very high cost by poor countries that desperately need them.

In France near Germany or Switzerland- is is alsmost impossible to retain doctors, nurses and care staff- as they travel to work over the border, again for much higher wages and conditions.

treating those who cannot pay

“Doctors whose training we have not paid for are coming to the UK on the cheap..
In doing so poorer countries are deprived of medics”

No, as I’ve tried to explain all their training is paid for by themselves. It’s not on the cheap. They have invested a large amount of money to have a well paid career. We pay a rate that they consider to be a good return on their investment.

In their home countries there is an excess of medics fir the number of people who can pay so they seek posts in other countries. They would not continue to be doctors resting those who cannot pay. They would move to a different well paid career.

There would be no increase in doctors for those who cannot pay if there were no jobs abroad. People would just cease to train as doctors because it would not be worth the investment.

In these countries qualified medical care is only for those who can pay. There could be a thousand excess medics there. It would make no difference.

Calistemon

Filipino nurses have been coming to work here for years.
I remember being treated by nurses from the Philippines very many years ago.

Another nurse who was Welsh grumbled that they had been told to find other accommodation because the Trust wanted the nurses' home for the nurses they were recruiting from the Philippines.

That's how the UK has worked ever since Empire.
I think you'll find that the Phillipines belonged to the Spanish Empire.
The Spanish had a huge Empire but failed to conquer England.

I echo all the above.
Filipino nurses were always a favourite with me as they seemed so pleasant and helpful.
I know what the OP means, but think that all nursing staff and doctors too have a right to travel and work in other countries as they see fit.

I don’t think most go to Australia because it pays more in all honesty nanna8, for most it’s a lifestyle choice, and also greater job satisfaction because the facilities are much more modern and investment in health is higher. My sister is a nurse and did it over 30 years ago, and she knows many others in the same boat where she works.

Many years ago my DM had a wonderful Ugandan nurse. She came over for six months every year and worked for a British agency leaving her daughter with the grandparents, and then had six months at home with her family and working there. It worked well for her as she could earn a lot more here. But she said she would be going home soon as her contract had been undercut by Eastern European agency nurses. The agencies were set up in the home countries such as Latvia so they could employ people paying what was a good wage in the home country but far less than minimum wage here. I also heard (prior to Brexit kicking in) a programme about the shortage of nursing staff and doctors in Eastern Europe. Now we have people able to come from all over the world and earn a good wage while they're here. Some stay, and many return home better off than when they came. Surely that's better?

Quite a few British doctors and nurses come here because we pay more. Sometimes they return after a few years but mostly they tend to stay. I think the doctors have to do some extra training first or be directed to an area of high need.

I don't know about other places but in my nearest hospital and in the local care home, we have had staff employed from the Philippines since the early 80s. Many of them attended our local church. This is nothing new, so I don't know about poaching. Filipino people have always been living where I am. For a while I had both an Indian GP and an Indian dentist too and that was in the 70s and 80s. People always come here to work, same as people who go to Canada, Australia and USA.

I was about to say what JenniferEccles has said. Nobody holds a gun to their heads. If they didn't wish to come here then they won't. It's their choice entirely.

Alot of those coming over ,send money back to their families as in their home country they just can not earn enough to keep their families in food etc,

As the mother of a doctor, with two other doctors in the family, I’m on the side of the doctors. It cost us a lot of money to put our daughter through medical school for six years (she did the intercalated course, so six years training) whilst she was in London. Books, tube fares, rent, food, etc mounted up. It’s a good job I was working. We also paid the fees, but at that time they were only £1000. Nonetheless the cost of training a doctor is far in excess of the current fees of £9000. I support anyone wanting to go abroad to work. However, for those who don’t like the word poaching when we bring fully trained doctors to the UK to work, it can be sanitised and we can call it recruiting. It doesn’t change the fact that doctors whose training we have not paid for are coming to the UK on the cheap for the UK. In doing so, poorer countries are deprived of medics. Very few, if any British doctors are rushing off to work in third world countries, they are rushing off to work in Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. It pricks my conscience that poorer countries are losing their doctors to us.

LadyWee

This thread is ridiculous! People calling it ‘poaching’, goodness me!

People move abroad of their own free will, no one is forced to do so. You will find medics and nurses from all over all around the world! People move where there is opportunity for them in a skill they have acquired - for experience, money, an adventure, for respite… If others wish to do so - great - go and acquire that skill also!

Because a country provides an education to an individual, it does not mean that said country owns that individual!

Why don’t we just leave it to them to decide what they want to do, given that it doesn’t affect any of us in the slightest!

Well said.

poaching health staff from the Philippines What?

no guns involved I take it. unfortunate title.

This thread is ridiculous! People calling it ‘poaching’, goodness me!

People move abroad of their own free will, no one is forced to do so. You will find medics and nurses from all over all around the world! People move where there is opportunity for them in a skill they have acquired - for experience, money, an adventure, for respite… If others wish to do so - great - go and acquire that skill also!

Because a country provides an education to an individual, it does not mean that said country owns that individual!

Why don’t we just leave it to them to decide what they want to do, given that it doesn’t affect any of us in the slightest!

SueDonim

^But then I'm irritated by medics/teachers etc trained in UK never working in UK public health/education, but going straight off abroad or to work in private sector.^

Maybe that’s because the NHS treats young doctors so appallingly. My young medic dd is regularly working 75+ hours a week. Do people really want to be seen by a doctor who’s been working those hours? I wouldn’t want to be.

This is going to cause a huge problem down the line. Of the approximate fifty Foundation Years doctors in her area only three - yes, three - are planning to go on into specialist training. The others are considering leaving medicine for other careers, going abroad for better condition or doing bank work only (for huge pay packets). So that’s only three people remaining to become GP’s, cardiologists, surgeons, neurologist, obstetricians and so on.

Spot on. And anyone who has medics in the family must agree. Especially as fees are quite considerable now for medics to train - 9 thousand I think a year x 5/6 years - plus their loans for living etc. They are going to go off somewhere like Australia and Canada wheee the pay is much better.

Same principle for the multitude of staff that come from Asia etc. Most come as the comparative pay is better in the UK. They also go to Aus,Nz, etc.

Why wouldn’t highly trained, intelligent people head to work somewhere that offers them a better wage and standard of living? It’s a buyers market!

“We let other countries foot the bill for their training”.

I don’t know how many times I have to say this.

NO WE DONT,

In the countries we are talking about, the State pays NOTHING for medical training. It’s a purely private, commercial venture funded by the trainee medics themselves and sometimes charities.

It costs the State nothing because there is no State medicine.

maddyone

Students do pay for their higher education, but let’s not pretend that the amount paid, although huge, actually covers the cost of their training. In 2016 it was estimated that tax payers fund the training of doctors to the tune of £230,000 despite the fees that they pay themselves. In this country the government decides how many medical school places they will fund and of course it is never enough, which is why we poach doctors from abroad. We need more doctors than we are prepared to pay for, and so we poach them. We let other countries foot the bill for their training. It’s that simple. Other countries play the same game, so of course there are never enough doctors, and so of course poorer countries lose out.

We have increased medical student places, another 6 new medical schools, one of which a friends son has applied to. Also realise overseas students also apply to train here, then go home to practice. Until we can match salary and conditions with those of other countries, then we will continue to have problems with retaining staff, then again many don’t go overseas.

As I personally am not "poaching" anyone, I am quite comfortable with the Government's action. I would not be comfortable and would actively attempt to do something about it if any Government was forcing Health Staff to come here. It is the individual's choice and our Government (whatever colour) has a duty to staff the NHS. As mentioned our own citizens can be trained by NHS and don't then have to work for it.

SueDonim I couldn't agree more, our medical staff are treated appallingly. My post was getting too long, so that bit got cut! The cohort of a friend's god-daughter all went abroad, and I don't blame them, but that doesn't make it right.
I also agree with MaddyOne that students pay a certain amount but not all of the cost.
I could have rambled on, but I did imply Calistemon that now student medics meet some of the massive training cost, the lines are blurred.

But then I'm irritated by medics/teachers etc trained in UK never working in UK public health/education, but going straight off abroad or to work in private sector.

Maybe that’s because the NHS treats young doctors so appallingly. My young medic dd is regularly working 75+ hours a week. Do people really want to be seen by a doctor who’s been working those hours? I wouldn’t want to be.

This is going to cause a huge problem down the line. Of the approximate fifty Foundation Years doctors in her area only three - yes, three - are planning to go on into specialist training. The others are considering leaving medicine for other careers, going abroad for better condition or doing bank work only (for huge pay packets). So that’s only three people remaining to become GP’s, cardiologists, surgeons, neurologist, obstetricians and so on.

Students do pay for their higher education, but let’s not pretend that the amount paid, although huge, actually covers the cost of their training. In 2016 it was estimated that tax payers fund the training of doctors to the tune of £230,000 despite the fees that they pay themselves. In this country the government decides how many medical school places they will fund and of course it is never enough, which is why we poach doctors from abroad. We need more doctors than we are prepared to pay for, and so we poach them. We let other countries foot the bill for their training. It’s that simple. Other countries play the same game, so of course there are never enough doctors, and so of course poorer countries lose out.

But then I'm irritated by medics/teachers etc trained in UK never working in UK public health/education, but going straight off abroad or to work in private sector.

As they have paid their own way through university and possibly left with huge debts then why?
They don't get grants any more so should not feel any obligation to stay and work here.

If we desperately need more nurses I think we should fund or help to find their training.
Some need degrees and higher degrees but not all do.

Bit late replying I know, but I do see the point you were making earlier Casdon when you challenged my comment about Philippino nurses being able to advance their qualifications while they were here.

I didn’t mean to imply that they were not sufficiently qualified to work here, just that maybe it would be easier for them to work their way up the career ladder here than it might be in their own country.