Does anyone feel that this is getting just a little bit unreasonable?

I thought it was acting, isn’t that what it is. Will they soon be wanting people who only have experience of
role they are playing.

seems to be predominantly men presenting as women and doing it in permanence

This is very incorrect. There is focus in the lesbian community these days (and has been ongoing for the last 10 years or so) about a large % of butch lesbians transitioning to men. I was reading an article about it in Diva magazine (I think it was Diva, memory) this week.

Oh, here we go. Disagree about actors, and we are adhering to the white dominant patriarchy?.

Oh, and we are 'right wing' to boot!

^Today 19:24 GagaJo
I get that most on this thread aren't interested in equality. Some are though. Including ER obviously.^
Condescending and “holier than thou”
GagGaJo

And no retraction of the slight to Ben Kingsley, he of mixed race British/Indian heritage who 'shouldn't' have played Ghandi.

It seems to be the trans ( activist) way Doodledog....
Their way or the highway.

Oh here we go. Back to insults rather than making points. Same old, same old.

What is a large percentage in this context, and a percentage of what? (ie of all lesbians, all butch lesbians, or what?). And from which list of lesbians has this 'large percentage' been derived?

On the contrary, I was coming out for equality, where all actors can play all parts.

In school plays I almost always played male parts, Tybalt, Mr Collins, Various shepherds and Kings. In fact at university I played Donald Eccles in NF Simpson's Resounding Tinkle. Donald Eccles changes his sex and the line that greeted me as I came on stage was 'Why Don, you have changed your sex.' I had quite forgotten that until i wrote this post.

GagaJo

Oh here we go. Back to insults rather than making points. Same old, same old.

Excuse me? Who brought in our 'adherence to the white dominant patriarchy? Do you expect people to just meekly suck up that sort of insult?

It might not have been Diva magazine. BUT I googled it and found these at the top of the link list.

www.them.us/story/butch-please

inmagazine.ca/2020/01/opinion-where-are-all-the-butches/

www.pride.com/women/2015/7/15/where-have-all-butches-gone

Interesting topic. I always thought female masculinity was a great concept.

GagaJo

It's about trying to stamp out discrimination. Just like #OscarsSoWhite.

There are lots of other categories.

Sex/gender
Sexuality
Nationality
Ableism
White washing

As much as we wish we did, we don't live in an equal world. BLM, trans issues. Both are very much part of the zeigeist now. I think it's great he's thought of it. Show's he is a sensitive man. He can look back at something he did, say 'I was wrong.' I think that shows strength of character.

Yep so sensitive he's now going to play Emcee in Cabaret which has oft been played by a gay man, and he's back to defending himself like he did about Lili Elbe until he saw the light. As an actor I like him, his pronouncements I find hollow.

GagaJo

That is rot MOnica. Unfortunately, we do not live in an equal world. Heterosexual white men are dominant.

There is nothing wrong with trying to equal things up.

I'm honestly shocked at the adherence to the white dominant patriarchy on here. The Tories will be rubbing their hands in glee at the factionalism evident in the UK now. Stops everyone pointing the finger at the place the inequality stems from.

It's only acting!!

GagaJo

*seems to be predominantly men presenting as women and doing it in permanence*

This is very incorrect. There is focus in the lesbian community these days (and has been ongoing for the last 10 years or so) about a large % of butch lesbians transitioning to men. I was reading an article about it in Diva magazine (I think it was Diva, memory) this week.

This appears to be fictitious, both in its assertion and it’s supposed source.

If accredited research can be produced to justify the assertion that lesbians are now focussing on transition I will apologise.

It's another one of those spurious claims (like the one that 98% of transpeople live quietly, or whatever it was) that can never be backed up by data, as there (rightly) is no list of lesbians, so no way of knowing what percentage do anything.

Calistemon

GagaJo

That is rot MOnica. Unfortunately, we do not live in an equal world. Heterosexual white men are dominant.

There is nothing wrong with trying to equal things up.

I'm honestly shocked at the adherence to the white dominant patriarchy on here. The Tories will be rubbing their hands in glee at the factionalism evident in the UK now. Stops everyone pointing the finger at the place the inequality stems from.

It's only acting!!

So we're sticking with white heterosexual men dominating then? facepalm

No, whoever is best for the part!

We're not back in Shakespearean times.

Doodledog

It's another one of those spurious claims (like the one that 98% of transpeople live quietly, or whatever it was) that can never be backed up by data, as there (rightly) is no list of lesbians, so no way of knowing what percentage do anything.

In that case, there is no list of trans people, so all the trans fear being whipped up is also a spurious movement.

It's one or the other Doodledog. Schrodinger's trans. The end of women as we know them and also not there at all.

Calistemon

No, whoever is best for the part!

We're not back in Shakespearean times.

If we follow that rule, it will be white hetero men all the way. It's why we have feminism and BLM.

GagaJo

Calistemon

No, whoever is best for the part!

We're not back in Shakespearean times.

If we follow that rule, it will be white hetero men all the way. It's why we have feminism and BLM.

Are you saying that white, heterosexual men are better actors than anyone else?

I don't think that's true.

Of course not. They're the ones in the dominant social position.

GagaJo

Doodledog

It's another one of those spurious claims (like the one that 98% of transpeople live quietly, or whatever it was) that can never be backed up by data, as there (rightly) is no list of lesbians, so no way of knowing what percentage do anything.

In that case, there is no list of trans people, so all the trans fear being whipped up is also a spurious movement.

It's one or the other Doodledog. Schrodinger's trans. The end of women as we know them and also not there at all.

Nope. There are crime figures, and in jail, for instance, it is known when a TW is housed in a female jail, so when the rapes and assaults are counted, they are based on actual figures, not ones plucked out of the air, such as '98% of transpeople', or 'a large percentage of butch lesbians'.

Is there a butch scale for lesbians now? When does a lesbian become butch? When she defines as such, or when someone tells her? Who counts them, so that they can decide on the percentage that has transitioned to men? How do they know about the transitions, when anyone who says they have changed gender can claim to have done so?

You are right about one thing though - Shrodinger would be spinning in his grave.

Doodledog, if you really don't know about lesbian history, there isn't any point discussing it with you. Female masculinity in butches is a major movement in the lesbian community. I'm afraid that was a bit of an own goal. It's such a basic, any very simple search engine would give umpteen links. I'm betting it's even got a Wiki page.

I'm sure it does have a wiki page - not that that is any measure of accuracy. I don't need to google - this is one of the areas where there is a spectrum. But how were they defined in the study you quote? These things matter when percentages are being flung around willy (no pun intended) nilly.

Whitewavemark2

What happens if a person is bi- sexual?

Or a eunuch.

Or hermaphrodite

Bit difficult

There is an hermaphrodite in Fellini's film Juliet of the Spirits - just out of interest.