So many dreams for our youngsters dashed.

The title of this thread should be: So many dreams for our youngsters ( middle class ones mainly) made slightly more difficult by red tape.

Why “ middle class ones “?. It’s not just about gap year fgs.
I’ve taught students very much not middle class who have set off to work in Europe.

But I realise any doubt cast on the wisdom of brexit has to be stamped on at once. I give up.

NotSpaghetti

I doubt the summer jobs in Europe which used to be easy (and, conversely the UK jobs that young Europeans would have taken) are the same as a "planned" gap year in Thailand where, if Callistemon is correct, thousands of pounds are necessary.
A cheap ferry/flight/train was all that was required.

Exactly, no comparison at all. As a member of EU, our youngsters (anyone actually) could go to EU, very cheaply, hitch-hiking even or by bicycle on ferry, train, cheap plight- for a whole 3 months to look for work. Now that is just not possible. Visa required, and job contract must be in place before you leave, and the employer has to make a special case for employing someone non-EU. Just as it was before we joined. Almost impossible.

Indeed Lucca- I know many who have gone to work in leisure, in the Alps for skiing, or Spain, etc, for surfing, sailins, kayaking, etc- who are NOT posh at all. They WORK hard for little money but love the job. Learn the language/s, get grounded, go up the ladder, often stay long-term in much better jobs in the end. Often marry locals, or others who they meet on the way from all over the world.

10% is a lot!

This (above) in response to Kandinsky.

NotSpaghetti

10% is a lot!

I suspect it's also a made up figure..

But since when were minorities unimportant?

One of my first politics lectures at uni made it clear that considering minorities was an essential element of democracy.

PippaZ

Beckett

I would say the majority of GNs didn't have the opportunity to work abroad - were their "hopes dashed"? We somehow managed to fulfill our dreams and make good lives for ourselves.

It became the norm for young people to have a "gap year" to go "find themselves" now they can still work abroad they just have to show they have the skills required by that country - it may lead to less young people believing they are entitled to have and do whatever they want.

I'm assuming you are in favour of Brexit Beckett. I am also assuming you think this is an argument setting out good reasons for us being excluded from all the membership benefits we had.

It isn't. It just sounds bitter. Do you really not want the next generation to do better than the last?

Of course I want the next generation to do better than the last - but I would also like them to grow a bit of the backbone other generations had and not start whinging just because something is difficult and expecting everything to drop into their laps

MaizieD

NotSpaghetti

10% is a lot!

I suspect it's also a made up figure..

But since when were minorities unimportant?

One of my first politics lectures at uni made it clear that considering minorities was an essential element of democracy.

I don't think that holds if they are considered "middle class" though MaizieD

What is wrong with being middle class ?

What exactly does middle class mean in the 21st century?

I think my "10% is a lot" has been taken slightly out of context.
I was really saying that 10% is a huge number of young people who are affected.
"Made up" or not. If (say,) one in ten young people are finding new barriers in life it's a real shame.

GrannyGravy13

What is wrong with being middle class ?

What exactly does middle class mean in the 21st century?

Nothing! but posters on here are assuming all those wanting to work in Europe are middle class

lemongrove

The title of this thread should be: So many dreams for our youngsters ( middle class ones mainly) made slightly more difficult by red tape.

I don't think you understand LG. For some jobs (as with the experience I had) those without EU passports will find it near to impossible to get work permits.

Unless the job is a shortage area, ONLY EU passport holders will be considered for visas and therefore those companies will not consider Brits for those jobs anymore.

When we joined the EU, a huge amount of opportunities opened up. And now, those have gone again. I for one would have not been able to work at some of the places I was lucky enough to be able to. I have at least 9 friends working in Europe, that would not be able to do that now.

Such a wealth of experience and opportunity closed to us now.

Exactly Lucca. I am certainly NOT middle class. Working overseas has given me the experiences that those with inherited wealth were able to buy as holidays. Without being able to work overseas, my life would have been so much rounded and I would have missed so many experiences.

NotSpaghetti

I think my "10% is a lot" has been taken slightly out of context.
I was really saying that 10% is a huge number of young people who are affected.
"Made up" or not. If (say,) one in ten young people are finding new barriers in life it's a real shame.

Sorry, I wasn't criticising your comment. I just suspected that the original quoted figure of 10% was pulled out of thin air and intended to imply that very few young people were affected.

I agree that 10% represents a considerable number of young people.

*so much LESS

We worked and lived in European Countries before the present configuration of the EU, things have altered now.

Give it time for Covid to recede, which is stopping most international travel at the present time and see what happens then.

Barriers in travel at present, not due to Brexit due to Covid, 2 yrs with very limited movement. Student exchange for limited periods is sure to be allowed when normality resumes. Long term opportunities for some skilled workers will also be allowed, however all countries ( including UK) are trying to find employment for their own citizens, avoiding migrant labour.
So students really need to train for the jobs that are available in the UK, there are plenty.

vegansrock

Going to Thailand on a gap year is NOT the same as getting a permanent job in Paris, studying in Copenhagen, setting up a business in Germany or retiring to Spain. It has become vastly more difficult to do the latter examples One of my family teaches in a university in Italy. He would find immense bureaucratic difficulties in obtaining that job now, since parity of educational qualifications from non EU countries is not immediately recognised. Those who say it can be done , we didn’t do it in my day, you can go to Australia etc , are missing the point, we have deliberately made life more complicated and expensive for thousands of our fellow citizens.

I know that.

The discussion at the time was about gap year students or young people in their teens or early twenties wanting to go off on an adventure for a year or two, doing short-term unskilled jobs.

Permanent careers in the EU for older people with qualifications are a different matter entirely.

As for pilots - there are far more pilots than jobs available in the EU and perhaps it is time for a complete re-think about air travel.

Katie59

Barriers in travel at present, not due to Brexit due to Covid, 2 yrs with very limited movement. Student exchange for limited periods is sure to be allowed when normality resumes. Long term opportunities for some skilled workers will also be allowed, however all countries ( including UK) are trying to find employment for their own citizens, avoiding migrant labour.
So students really need to train for the jobs that are available in the UK, there are plenty.

No, student exchange will not continue as before. The UK has been excluded from the Erasmus programme which facilitated most exchanges - and much more.

It's very sad, I know.

But this stance by EU employers, insisting that only those with EU passports may apply, may make it easier for them but discriminates against young people from all around the world.
I know of young people from outside the EU whose families originated from Europe and have or want to go back to work for a while in the countries their grandparents came from.

Is this a new rule and is this discrimination legal?

It isn't a stance Callistemon. It is that it is VERY difficult to get a visa. The person that was originally appointed to my Spanish job 4 years ago was non EU. The school applied for her visa 2 1/2 months before they readvertised. It was almost impossible to get her the visa so the job was withdrawn. Her loss was my gain, but it's OUR loss now.

GrannyGravy13

We worked and lived in European Countries before the present configuration of the EU, things have altered now.

Give it time for Covid to recede, which is stopping most international travel at the present time and see what happens then.

Sigh...

We all know that it was possible to live and work in Europe before we joined the EU. It's one of those meaningless tropes that's been thrown at us ever since the Leave vote.

In order to do these things we had to fulfil certain conditions and go through an application procedure. This has not been the case since the development of the Single Market and Freedom of Movement. This has been an excellent development and given very many more people opportunities which weren't open to them before. Brexit has now, once again, made moving to, and working in, EU member states more complex than we have been used to. I'm sure all you Leave voters are delighted that this is so. Remain voters are not.

P.S. Unlike all the 'we existed before we joined the Common Market so what's the problem with leaving the EU?' nostalgics, our young people have never experienced anything different from free movement. They don't have memories of the golden age of being the sick man of Europe to bolster them up...

P.P.S Ending of covid won't make us any less of a third country than we are now. EU travel and employment rules for third country citizens will still apply.

Beckett

PippaZ

Beckett

I would say the majority of GNs didn't have the opportunity to work abroad - were their "hopes dashed"? We somehow managed to fulfill our dreams and make good lives for ourselves.

It became the norm for young people to have a "gap year" to go "find themselves" now they can still work abroad they just have to show they have the skills required by that country - it may lead to less young people believing they are entitled to have and do whatever they want.

I'm assuming you are in favour of Brexit Beckett. I am also assuming you think this is an argument setting out good reasons for us being excluded from all the membership benefits we had.

It isn't. It just sounds bitter. Do you really not want the next generation to do better than the last?

Of course I want the next generation to do better than the last - but I would also like them to grow a bit of the backbone other generations had and not start whinging just because something is difficult and expecting everything to drop into their laps

What a sad world you must live in Beckett. I do wonder if you ever mix with young and younger people. The way you portray them is not something I have seen.

They seem to be very like every generation we have had - including my own. Circumstances change. However, we still get the good, the bad, the thoughtful and the thoughtless - just as we do on GN. I would go as far as to say that I see far more "lack of backbone" in the older generation, some of whom seem to have a great sense of entitlement. But then I am cheered to know those who are of sterner stuff. Those who wade through life's obstacles heroically - and you can find some of each whatever the age.

But still the Conservatives are still encouraging us to set one group against another - and some follow their every direction.

It’s good to see that the French police and Britain’s Crime Agency are collaborating to catch this scum.
Dispute the fact that at
least 2 posters on this thread were adamant that this collaboration would come to an end after brexit.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9845731/Suspected-trafficker-thought-organised-deadly-dinghy-trip-killed-toddler-arrested.html