A Labour government would have made a mess of covid too.

I don’t know if my views count as I voted labour in 2017 and 2019, as I have every general election since I could vote.

I won’t repeat the reasons my limited trust in Corbyn diminished over his leadership. I didn’t see him as a good leader, so didn’t expect him to be a good PM. My vote was for the basic belief and principles that underpin the Labour Party. In our FPTP system, Labour has the only hope of beating the Conservatives.
I don’t believe the LP with any leader would have handed contracts to mates with no expertise or track record. It would have used local and nhs services to set up track and trace. I wish ?Johnson had set up a government of national unity. He really is dreadful and so are the individuals he’s promoted above their abilities

Yes trisher I was one of the 2.5 million people who voted Labour in 2017 but not in 2019. I have already explained my reasons at length - as have a number of others, not that we need for us to justify our reasons, which in my case was not related to the policies. I do wonder what you are expecting to gain from this discussion, when it’s clear that losing 20% of the vote share in two years surely indicates that’s there’s a huge credibility issue and things have to change?

Casdon, the answer to your question from Corbyn/momentum type supporters usually includes the suggestion that red wall voters (for example) were misled by the wicked main stream media, believed the lies about Corbyn.

Iam64 the red wall voters quite plainly voted for Getting Brexit Done.
Casdon I asked because Corbyn was leading the LP in 2017, many of the policies in the manifesto were the same, with some small additions. And "yes" I do wonder what part mainstream media played. This is interesting www.electionanalysis.uk/uk-election-analysis-2019/section-4-parties-and-the-campaign/the-media-and-the-manifestos-why-2019-wasnt-2017-redux-for-the-labour-party/

I really don't understand why people woud deny they were influenced by the media in their opinion of Corbyn and the LP. I watched Matt Hancock talking about the new NHS reforms he is proposing and it sounded great, it's only on closer inspection that you see the truth.

I suppose people are more or less influenced by the media on an individual basis aren’t they? I like seeing politics in action for myself, listening to what politicians actually say, how well they can hold their own in debates, and their response to challenges as I think that reveals the substance better than anything else.
Not everybody does that I know, and media bias is a huge issue, but it is there to be challenged and manipulated if the leadership is up to the job.

Then there is the Israeli lobby filmed offering million to Labour Blairite MP to undermine Labour Party Corbyn a supporter of Palestine

Politics is no longer about policies or even economics (except to enrich a handful). It's been turned into a culture war. Just look at what's happening with history education, the judiciary, the media/journalism etc. People's prejudices about "wokeness" are being manipulated. Corbyn played straight into it and so are the people who still support him. It's quite frightening.

trisher

I really don't understand why people woud deny they were influenced by the media in their opinion of Corbyn and the LP. I watched Matt Hancock talking about the new NHS reforms he is proposing and it sounded great, it's only on closer inspection that you see the truth.

Relatively few people ever read beyond a headline or delve into what's really behind what politicians say.

BTW My opinion of Corbyn's policies was that they were disjointed and lacking coherence. Some of them were cr*p.

There is lies dishonesty in politics untrustworthy politicians it's frightening all to the right neo liberal the only decent honest man was Corbyn, still is. With excellent polices everyone of them, with a fully costed manifesto. Starmer now has Mandelson of New Labour what are his polices

It would not matter a jot to you Grany, what Starmer’ s policies are.

I agree Grany. It's a pretty poor show when Starmer has to turn to people like Mandelson for advice on how to maintain the party's relevance and increase its popularity.

I think it's naive of people to deride the idea that the mainstream media has always played a very significant part in turning the electorate against parties on the left. Most newspapers tell people to vote Conservative and it is well known that Murdoch's support of Blair - and Blair's willingness to go along with a more right wing agenda - was a key factor in Labour winning that election.

It always reminds me of people who insist that advertisements don't influence what they buy - as if they are somehow especially wise and unlike most of the population who, they may concede, is influenced by advertisments.

Was Blair’s government the same as the Thatcher years ?

Grany a reality check is needed. People are more or less influenced by the media, some make far more effort to find their truths than others do. Nobody is denying that the media is influential unless they are living on a desert island. The point is, people won’t change the way they engage, and not playing the media to best advantage is foolish in the extreme if a party wants to succeed. Corbyn and co. failed, and there’s no point agonising over how people can be so naive, ignorant, stupid or whatever for not ‘seeing the light’ as you did. You have to accept it’s over and move on, and it won’t return within the Labour Party now.

I have said this before The Labour Party is the gift to the Conservative Party that just keeps giving (primarily the keys to No.10)

Of course it does while we have the level of journalism we currently have GrannyGravy13. There is always a swath in any country who will believe anyone who repeats their own prejudices back to them and find a few more scapegoats in the process.

Did you actually think that all the pro-Trump, anti-Biden news reports where true? If not why do you believe the pro-Johnson (not really the Conservative party and its policies) anti-Corbyn/Starmer (not really the Labour party policies) and anti any other party leader, not their policies?

For Boris, politics – indeed life – is about power, self-gratification and self-glorification in the manner of the Roman Emperors he admires from his classical studies at Eton. In the quest to be 'world king' – as he told his sister as a boy – any policies will do. They don't fundamentally matter. They are just the 'bread and circuses' with which emperors appeased the masses.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/andrew-adonis-on-boris-johnson-24302

The point is Casdon There was a party within a party sabotaging Labour, an 800 page report, it could have won in 2017

Then there was all out determination from many quarters including saboteurs to thwart a left wing government. Then the issue ofvBrexit.

We do need a socialist government like those successful countries like Scandinavia someone strong a good leader to stand up to the right wing media and elite. Starmer should not be attacking the left he should be attacking the Tories ect.

Iam64

Back to the OP, any government would get some things wrong if faced with this pandemic. I don’t believe a Labour government would have made as much of a mess of this Conservative one has.
Part of the problem has been Johnson’s desire To avoid imposing restrictions. It’s all been too late and shambolic.
The airports still have people arriving from Covid red zones mixing in queues with others. Arrivals can use public transport to go to their accommodation. Even when hotel quarantine is belatedly imposed, those quarantining will be able to use public transport to the hotel and leave the hotel if they want to.

Oh yes, any government would definitely have got some things wrong ( and some things right).
Believing that Labour would have done better overall ( or that any Party would have done things better overall) is simply belief and not fact ( obviously).

What sort of a Labour Party do the "moderates" want to see then? Because although I was prepared to give Starmer a chance he has for me fallen at every hurdle. He has failed to unite the party as he promised attempting instead to move it to the right (Mandelson FFS!) He paid off the people responsible for undermining Corbyn, hasn't investigated the matter and probably hopes it might go away (could he have been involved?). He hasn't supported human rights and as an opposition has failed completely.
As far as media coverage goes 12 Jewish Labour Party left wing members were suspended from the party. What sort of coverage would this have got under Corbyn?
www.thecanary.co/exclusive/2021/01/13/a-left-wing-jewish-group-is-taking-legal-action-against-the-labour-party/

GrannyGravy13

I have said this before The Labour Party is the gift to the Conservative Party that just keeps giving (primarily the keys to No.10)

?????????

lemongrove

Iam64

Back to the OP, any government would get some things wrong if faced with this pandemic. I don’t believe a Labour government would have made as much of a mess of this Conservative one has.
Part of the problem has been Johnson’s desire To avoid imposing restrictions. It’s all been too late and shambolic.
The airports still have people arriving from Covid red zones mixing in queues with others. Arrivals can use public transport to go to their accommodation. Even when hotel quarantine is belatedly imposed, those quarantining will be able to use public transport to the hotel and leave the hotel if they want to.

Oh yes, any government would definitely have got some things wrong ( and some things right).
Believing that Labour would have done better overall ( or that any Party would have done things better overall) is simply belief and not fact ( obviously).

There is nothing to lead us to believe that any other party would have been as determined to use the "Pals" club and, for months, insist on using private organisations, at a huge cost with no proper tendering process. That is reasonable conjecture knowing the various party policies.

Because of this our test, trace, and isolate programme has been extremely poor and that has led to us having the highest level of deaths per capita in countries similar to ourselves. The two countries in the world that have beaten us are Belgium and Slovenia. That is a fact*.

Whatever you think of the Labour Party it is extremely unlikely they would have gone down this track and far more likely they would have used our existing public health services, bolstering them where necessary. If you would like to argue that supposition, based on Conservative and Labour policies, rather than lies from shady journalists, then I am sure others will join me in doing so.

This is not a "belief" as you try portray others knowledge and research. I am neither a Labour Party supporter nor a consistent Labour voter. I am interested in politics and have watched attempts being made to take our country over, by the same crusaders that tried to destroy the liberal democracy in the USA.

Trump and Johnson alike believe that popular support (the so-called "will of the people" which was only ever the will of a minority) allows them to take on the elected chambers of their countries, the rule of law, the civil service and also the parties they lead.

Such a view of government would always mean that the systems that swing into action in an emergency are cut to the bone and, where possible, privatised. This is why no other party would be in the same position, to make the same or even equal mistakes, as the Johnson government, which has the years of renewed 'Tory misrule' behind it.

*https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

WW010

GrannyGravy13

I have said this before The Labour Party is the gift to the Conservative Party that just keeps giving (primarily the keys to No.10)

?????????

Exactly the philosophy and thinking that has made us a society with 4.2 million people living in poverty.

That should be children living in poverty

trisher the LP does not come over as a unified party, so much infighting. They are not even a credible opposition (down in the polls and behind Conservatives)

The media does play a part but the LP does have to look to itself as opposed to blaming everyone/everything else.