A Labour government would have made a mess of covid too.

Vladimir Putin, Cambridge Analytica, Rupert Murdoch and the other tax dodging billionaires who control most of the British press is how it happened.

I think it happened PippaZ because those who had taken control of the Labour Party just wouldn’t listen when they were told that their policies and their chosen leader were not electable.

Their vision of society was not what the majority of electors wanted.

The leader of the oppositions showing no leadership in the Brexit campaign didn't help either.

The bottom line is that the Tories got in because there was no realistic alternative, demonstrated by millions of formerly loyal Labour voters voting for whichever other party they felt most comfortable with, or Tory because Labour had not got its act together about Brexit, mismanaged by Corbyn to the nth, and though it grates on me to say this, because they believed in Boris.

I resent your point about voting for other parties than the Tories PippaZ, I can’t speak for anybody else but where I live there was a viable alternative - but see it as a protest vote if you will- ultimately it doesn’t matter, because it happened, and if nothing else it sent the clearest signal possible that Corbyn and crew had to go, and the Labour Party had to change.

I do think the COVID situation would be managed very differently by a Labour administration now, but we weren’t in that position in March when it hit.

The Brexit campaign, Corbyn refused to take part in tv debates and even went on holiday, how can the media be blamed for this .

Their vision of society was not what the majority of electors wanted.

What was their vision of society, Peasblossom?

I'd be really interested to know what they, and you, thought it was

So all these points are why you or others voted for this abominable man you would never otherwise employ to make the tea.

Destroying the characters of others does not make any difference to the fact that we have never had such falsehoods treated as the truth and this steals our democracy from us.

Previous PMs were not saints but they had a sense of public duty and integrity. This man and the one over the Atlantic will set us back centuries where democracy is concerned.

At least in the USA President Biden has replaced Trump and is able to steer his country on a better course.

What do we have to do to get rid of our lying fraudster?

Peasblossom

I think it happened PippaZ because those who had taken control of the Labour Party just wouldn’t listen when they were told that their policies and their chosen leader were not electable.

Their vision of society was not what the majority of electors wanted.

I too would be interested to know what that vision of society, shared by the majority of electors, actually looks like. This 'Jerusalem' that they all saw and we all missed.

It appears it includes destroying our hard-fought for democracy while this far seeubg part of society sits back and lets it happen. It means that ambitious ministers now need the essential quality of backing their leaders lies with their own lies and a necessary lack of intergrity to support the most here outrageous of misdeads.

Please, what are we getting in exchange?

An elective dictatorship -absolute rule based on a minority of votes is not democracy.

This country desperately needs constitutional reform.

Constitutional reform was what Nick Clegg should have secured from his friend Dave.

LibDems let us down as much as Labour.

A large number of the electorate really liked Johnson. He was different to most other politicians and, if you liked his style, charismatic and they fell for it. Some even believed that he was like them. And, as others have said, he was going to get Brexit done.

Many of us pointed out that he was a liar and a cheat but no one listened and no one cared.

^ he was going to get Brexit done.^

Yeah... perhaps when we've discovered what this Labour vision of society was that people disliked so much is, we could move on to assessing the success, or not, of Brexit...

A large number of the electorate really liked Johnson

Terrifying when voting for a government comes down to a popularity contest, with no regard to actual competence...

MaizieD, when people say:

'A Labour government would have made a mess of covid too'

they just don't want to face reality, do they? Having no valid, rational explanation for all the delays, half measures and u-turns, the resultant terrible death toll, they have to admit it's been a catastrophe.

You’re still not listening.

“All these points are why you and others voted for this abominable man”

No we didn’t. What most posts say is that they couldn’t vote for the Labour Party as it stood at the election. Read them again. Really try to think about what former Labour supporters are saying.

We need to see a real change if former supporters are to come back. Otherwise the result of the next election will be the same.

Peasblossom, surely not? I fail to see how they'd be voted in again!

If there’s no alternative, they’ll be back?

Peasblossom

I think it happened PippaZ because those who had taken control of the Labour Party just wouldn’t listen when they were told that their policies and their chosen leader were not electable.

Their vision of society was not what the majority of electors wanted.

Peaseblossom Do you think the NHS is a great organisation which has functioned at its best during Covid?
Do you think that the vacination programme roll out has been great?
Do you approve of free school meals for children?
Would you like to see an end to food banks?
Would you like to see more social housing built?
If you answered "yes" to most of these then you wanted a Labour government.

I did want a Labour Government. I still do.

I didn’t want a Corbynista Government and neither did the electorate.

It’s like banging your head against a brick wall. Thankfully the new leadership of the Labour Party has listened, although some members of Gransnet seem unable to hear. They need time now to repair the damage, and regain votes.

Peasblossom

You’re still not listening.

“All these points are why you and others voted for this abominable man”

No we didn’t. What most posts say is that they couldn’t vote for the Labour Party as it stood at the election. Read them again. Really try to think about what former Labour supporters are saying.

We need to see a real change if former supporters are to come back. Otherwise the result of the next election will be the same.

I am listening. I simply don't believe you. You are asking me to believe that Brexit and the lies about it had no influence on the voting. It was not a positive vote for the lies, it was a negative vote by under half the country who, while they did not want this abominable man would have voted Labour but for Corbyn so ended up giving us all this alt-right government.

I simply don't think any of the data from the election shows that in anyway to be true. Yet another, shall we call it a myth, that tries to re-write history.

Casdon

It’s like banging your head against a brick wall. Thankfully the new leadership of the Labour Party has listened, although some members of Gransnet seem unable to hear. They need time now to repair the damage, and regain votes.

It's like banging your head against a brick wall because nobody will detail just what they saw as the Labour vision for the UK and why it was voted against.

Leave Corbyn out of it and just explain what the Labour vision was perceived to be and why it was disliked.

This is going just like my original enquiry about why people thought that a Labour govt. wouldn't have done any better in the pandemic than the current one. When it boils down to it, no-one actually has any solid rationale for their assertion, it's just unfounded 'beliefs'.

Now we ask what was the LP 'vision' that people didn't like and no-one can even tell us what they thought the 'vision' was.

Let alone why they didn't like it.

The same policies which were the policies the Labour Party remain in place. The same people are LP members. Nothing has changed apart from one man. And I think his days are numbered.. The new leadership of the LP has proved himself manifestly unable to support LP views. Particularly with his failure to oppose the Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill wich gives under cover officers the rights to commit criminal acts if it is in the economic interests of the UK. Which means just about anything goes. Still the unopposed erosion of your human rights won't bother you, because you like him.

I think Corbyn is a very good MP but not a good leader but I still voted for Labour as I felt they have the best interests of most the people at the heart of their policies. I certainly don't think they would allow blanket DNRs on people with learning disabilities for example. The coronavirus act and how it has affected those with disabilities and their likelihood of unexpected/premature death reminds me of a movement we fought a war to prevent.

I want add by 'we' I mean the UK. I have never fought in any war.