Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

If I may, there is no word which means the same Hiraeth , it means more than homesickness

Your reluctance to share to your location is fine and reasonable, Summerlove but, for some reason, I too thought you were located in North America. I could be wrong, of course.

The Europeans also suppressed use of indigenous American languages, establishing their own languages for official communications, destroying texts in other languages, and insisting that indigenous people learn European languages in schools. As a result, indigenous American languages suffered from cultural suppression and loss of speakers. By the 18th and 19th centuries, Spanish, English, Portuguese, French, and Dutch, brought to the Americas by European settlers and administrators, had become the official or national languages of modern nation-states of the Americas.

I do hope you are promoting the resurgence of indigenous American languages, Summerlove.

I am attempting to learn Welsh.

?
Time for a wee dram and The Masked Singer.

I'd hate to see you go!

I’d like to look at each of Callistemon’s points in turn because its almost a masterclass in how the desire for independence is misunderstood by a lot of people.

Oh dear, Alegrias - only almost a masterclass

I failed

I think a federal UK was mooted because it would be easier for the EU to administer.

Riverwalk

Thank you for your explanation Callistemon

Riverwalk there is usually an option to be able to listen to the instructions in English (I have sussed it now) but for elderly and possibly confused people, Welsh being the majority, it's not easy.

I am very much for the preservation of ancient languages (in fact, I've just been discussing the Rosetta Stone with DD online) but when the lingua franca is English then many people are getting cross and frustrated.

My friend who was upset because she couldn't cancel her appointment is Scottish btw.

Can't think of an equivalent of hiraeth but I'll let you know if I come up with something!

Laura

Fair enough Alegrias can’t really argue with your well articulated thoughts.

A federal UK is not enough for me, although it might have been once. I think once you get the idea of independence there's no going back. I'd like Scotland to be represented on the international stage, I'd like us to make our own decisions about defence, and border control, and immigration. And just everything, really.

Hiraeth is a wonderful Welsh word describing the feeling of longing or yearning for home. As in ‘we’ll kiss away each hour of hiraeth til you come home again to Wales’. There is no English equivalent, is there a Scottish word?

Whether we gain Independence or not NO ONE especially not a tory government that we didn't vote for has the right to tell us we're not ALLOWED a vote .As one of only Two signatories to the TREATY of union we should be able to decide for ourselves it WAS a "treaty" we signed ..not a deed of ownership...though sometimes I do wonder what England thought it had signed .

varian

When we first had devolution and set up the Scottish parlaiment and Welsh assembly, there was no need to elect MSPs and MAs.

MPs could have attended the HoC three days a week to decide UK wide matters then attended the devolved assemblies for the other two days to determine devolved matters.

During these other two days the HoC could have, in effect have been an English parliament where MPs representing English constituencies determined policies affecting England.

In time the various regions of England may have clamoured for their own direct represtation and we might have moved towards a federal UK.

Personally what Varian says has the most appeal to me. It would seem to be the most representative, the least costly and the least divisive.
BUT I do understand the current depth of feeling at being underrepresented.
I would like us to try an alternative and let the breaking up be a last resort.

Callistemon I can definitely relate to your experience re the Welsh language. All of my children were forced to learn all of their subjects through the medium of Welsh, they are all quite successful partly because they had the balance of English spoken at home. Classmates who spoke only Welsh at home have been successful in Wales but unable to expand careers outside Wales. This is digressing from the thread though.
Some are saying that they can’t understand people who voted for Brexit being pro the union. Perhaps this is because we share an island, a common currency, a common language and I hope largely still have common values.

Gaelic hasn't been the majority language in Scotland for a long time (hundreds of years). Its definitely not mandatory in schools. Scots now....that's what most of us speak. Including Nicola, me and the entire cast of River City.

I always assumed that you were American Summerlove,
From something or other you once said. We do seem to have a few posters from across the pond nowadays, which is nice.

I think you’re missing the point Summerlove, Welsh people, in the South at least, do not see the need for the Welsh language to be the dominant language. There’s little opposition to it being taught in school, and it’s used for things like singing the national anthem, rugby songs, hello and goodbye etc.

It’s a big leap from that to it becoming the dominant language, and most Welsh people have no desire for that to happen, and many are annoyed about it being pushed. The use of Welsh as the first language at home is a key indicator of whether it is growing as a language, and there’s little evidence to suggest that is happening. Ultimately, the political will cannot force people to do what they don’t want to in this respect in the modern world. I picked up in the Welsh news last week that parents who had sent their children to Welsh speaking primary schools (which are often very good) were complaining because they can’t help them with their homework during lockdown.

I don’t know obviously, but imagine that there are similar feelings in Scotland and Ireland about Gaelic.

Jaberwok

I wouldn't think that there would be many if any disadvantages to the rest of the UK if Scotland left the union. Financially it could be an advantage. While I can understand Scotland wanting independence, after all I voted for it in 2016, I can't I understand wanting to join the EU, going from one perceived tyranny to another? Surely far better to have total independence like Iceland, Norway or Greenland?

You would think so, but apparently not.?
I don’t think there would be any disadvantages to the rest of the UK merlotgran just be a shame that a country that we have been strongly allied to for many hundreds of years and is part of the same island, should choose to break away.
I think in a year or so, when the situation regarding Brexit and Covid settles down, you won’t find as many clamouring for independence.

Regarding Gaelic speaking in Scotland (Nicola Sturgeon can’t speak it either) I read a couple of weeks ago that out of 5 million people, approximately 50 - 60,000 folk can actually speak it. I think (?) it is mandatory in lessons there but just think - all the fluent ones would easily fit inside a football stadium within all of Scotland. A nice hobby. Melodious. But useful in the wider world? Sadly, no.

lemongrove

I would like to add, that NS devoting so much time to her independence project at this particular time is a disgrace.
The Covid pandemic needs to be truly over first.

So much time?
What evidence is there, of that?

What about the time and energy on getting brexit done and coping with its results?

Many in Scotland believe that gaining Independence, even with following difficulties, will be worth it rather than be tied into brexit Britain with a UK government (of any party) disregarding Scotland.

Callistemon

Summerlove
I just don’t see what’s wrong with reviving a dying national language.

Exactly the point I made too.

It should be encouraged, there must be many who want to learn it. Cornish too, Gaelic etc. All the old languages. I am absolutely in favour.

I had a struggle to find the English part of the many pages of my invitation to go for vaccination, hidden away amongst the Welsh.

I'll ask again - do you live in Wales, Summerlove?

Does it matter? I choose not to state where I live for internet security reasons

The issue here is bilingualism. I understand the issue of bilingualism. People with complaints like yours are usually the ones that agree that a small amount of second language is ok, but not enough to inconvenience them.

I find it interesting that in this case it’s a native language being revived, but the interloper language must still be dominant.

It’s sociologically fascinating.

Just because English isn’t first, you still found it didn’t you.

Imagine how it felt to the native welsh speakers having their language pushed out, to not see it or hear it and have to learn English.

Craftygranny, I am aware of the queen’s official title, I was making the point that many English people refer to her as queen of England as do most Americans and many Australians. Not very inclusive.

Thank you for your explanation Callistemon