The reason people tolerate governments who lie

monica because they are governing the country. I do expect a different standard.

As a civil servant that had legal access to company accounts, company buildings and infrastructure, company philosophy and planning etc, computer software, and knowledge as to how the company was run, I acted at a standard and still do that ensures that the company could have complete confidence in my integrity and confidentiality.

The standard kept to was not the same as I use in every day life. Of course it wasn’t.

But I expect that sort of integrity and confidence from any politician who is my representative and sits in the Commons legislating law and acting on my behalf.

I will not tolerate knowingly lying.

No politician has ever told the whole truth, ever in the whole annals of history. They tell you what they honestly believe to be the truth from their perspective, or lie in their teeth because it serves them best.

But then that is what most people do, however much we deceive ourselves that we don't. All of us have been embarrassed by the kind of person who blurts everything out without thinking. Hence all those amusing stories of children just saying things that we would prefer unsaid.

Why expect our politicians to be better than we are?

The way to find out out if an information medium such as the Mail, or the Guardian, is telling the truth is to ask who makes money or political power from selling the information. If the owner of the newspaper makes money from telling a section of the public what they want to hear then that newspaper can't be trusted.

Similarly for electronic media, and personal celebrities who influence opinions.

If all politicians knowingly lie, and the voter knows that they are lying, what on earth is the point?

That has nothing to do with democracy and we will need a new description of governing by lies - and it surely isn’t what I signed up for.

Presidents make promises they usually never fulfill by the time their term in office is over- When questioned why they didn't do what they said they would they rattle off a list of lies excuses-

They promise, we clap, they win then act like they pulled off a hat trick- It's all a charade-

In the meantime .. thousands are dying, hospitals are reaching capacity, nurses and doctors are suffering from exhaustion, jobless rates are on the rise, food lines are getting longer and .. Congress has taken a recess for Thanksgiving ..

And that's the truth ..

Alegrias Feel free to argue with me, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Any discussion is the better for having people who profoundly disagree, providing they do it with out getting insulting or personal.

no, no need- just wait, and trust, and see ...

doh

Yes, there is a threat to democracy and we are losing it fast! Sooner the more people stand up to speak the better!

biba70

Kandinsky

If this is about Brexit then I think most of what the ‘vote remain’ team said was lies ( & I genuinely do )

Remainers believe anything the guardian or C4 news feeds them ( or whatever pro remain media they follow )
They believe it because they want to believe it. Just like millions of people believe in what Nigel Farage says. Or the daily mail etc.

Thank you Kandinsky for this valuable contribution, which totally proves the point of the OP.

I still want to know what lies the vote remain side told because, apart from the emergency budget (which wouldn’t have been a big deal anyway) I can’t think of anything....

Where you can prove a fact. Maizie that there is a picture of you driving through a red light then i willaccept you drove through the red light.

But, MOnica, I'm saying that the light at the bottom of the traffic lights is green. Why isn't that true?

You asked 'what is truth'? Which seemed like a very philosophical question and one that was difficult to answer.
But now you seem to be saying that there are 'facts' which equate to 'truth'. So where is the difficulty?

It seems to me that M0nica's final paragraph proves the point of the article. If the electorate think that everybody is lying, they accept that and just go for the option they think will suit them best. The one thing I would like to point out though is that most political systems have more than two "sides".

But I'm not arguing with you M0nica, please don't think that.

If there was a party/politician that people considered to be honest and trustworthy, would they then get the support of many voters?

M0nica

Where you can prove a fact. Maizie that there is a picture of you driving through a red light then i willaccept you drove through the red light.

But I am very uncomfortable with the idea that the majority of the electorate are gullible fools who implicitly believe everything the media of the political party I disagree with says and that my party does not do that and only lost because the electorate are gullibl fools etc.

Others will say, your party lost because its policies were unbelievable and your leader unimpressive. I would say that both parties are lying toads.

The elctorate are not fools, they are well aware that both sides are telling outrageous lies and that they have to weigh up what both sides are saying and then calculate which, allowing for them both being lying toads, is most likely to be the most competent in running the country and benfitting them. It is a guessing game.

You are reading into the OP and article something that isn’t there. You are somehow conducting your own argument??

No one is saying that the voter is gullible or foolish.

Quite the reverse. What is being said that the voter is well aware of the lies being told but is prepared to overlook the lies in order to obtain their goal.

Oh dear Monica not that long ago I would have agreed with you but now, how do we know for sure that the picture of you driving through a red light was not faked?

I remember seeing the first Jurassic Park film in 1993 and, at the end, realising that the special effects were so good that I had been able to suspend disbelief.

That was quite a long time ago and since then the tools of those who conspire to promote fiction as fact have become so much more powerful and sophisticated.

Hence Putin and allies were able to ensure that enough Americans voted for Trump and enough UK citizens voted for brexit in 2016.

2016 was a great year for Putin, for deception and for populism and a terrible turning point for democracy worldwide.

Where you can prove a fact. Maizie that there is a picture of you driving through a red light then i willaccept you drove through the red light.

But I am very uncomfortable with the idea that the majority of the electorate are gullible fools who implicitly believe everything the media of the political party I disagree with says and that my party does not do that and only lost because the electorate are gullibl fools etc.

Others will say, your party lost because its policies were unbelievable and your leader unimpressive. I would say that both parties are lying toads.

The elctorate are not fools, they are well aware that both sides are telling outrageous lies and that they have to weigh up what both sides are saying and then calculate which, allowing for them both being lying toads, is most likely to be the most competent in running the country and benfitting them. It is a guessing game.

FarNorth

I read recently that, in order to persuade someone they are wrong, you should start by telling them they are right.
As in, agreeing with them that xyz is desirable or that they have made a good point and proceeding from there.

I think there is something in that.

I read recently that, in order to persuade someone they are wrong, you should start by telling them they are right.
As in, agreeing with them that xyz is desirable or that they have made a good point and proceeding from there.

I'm thinking of moving back to Australia....

Aaaah, Australia. If we're thinking about the purveying of lies, this appeared in my twitter time line this morning.

Power to his elbow, I say!
(Though Murdoch is one of theirs )

twitter.com/MrKRudd/status/1328971205823500289

Populism seems to be the issue - it’s starts on the false premise of identifying the “other” quite falsely, and has grown from there.

Intriguing article, thanks for posting the link WWM2. What I took from it is that if people don't trust the system, then even if they know the politician is lying, they just don't care. Scariest line was No amount of factchecking will reduce the appeal of Trump, Johnson, Duterte, Bolsonaro or any other populist demagogue around the world.

I'm thinking of moving back to Australia....

' how do we establish that my statement isn't true?'

As I said. What is truth? Until you can define that you cannot define lying.

Oh dear, MOnica. Sophistry for the post-truth era.

So, when I drive through a red traffic light and am subsequently prosecuted for it, but I swear that the traffic light was not red, but was green, how do we establish that my statement is true?

Or, when a big red bus says that we send £350 million to the EU every week and the National statistics Authority says that this is not true, how do we establish what is the truth?

How ironic:

I think the Brexit campaign was a pack of the most outrageous lies.

What is your definition of 'truth' then?

Cs783

Thank you for that link theconversation.com/why-people-vote-for-politicians-they-know-are-liars-128953 Whitewavemark2 which makes complete sense to me. People need to have faith in the system before they lose faith in the populists.

I’m looking for remedies by changing the system towards more responsive democracy. PR, a written constitution, votes at age 16, consultative assemblies ...?

Hooray????

That’s exactly what I’m saying.

Thank you for that link theconversation.com/why-people-vote-for-politicians-they-know-are-liars-128953 Whitewavemark2 which makes complete sense to me. People need to have faith in the system before they lose faith in the populists.

I’m looking for remedies by changing the system towards more responsive democracy. PR, a written constitution, votes at age 16, consultative assemblies ...?

This, essentially my point Kandinsky I think the Brexit campaign was a pack of the most outrageous lies.

Kandinsky

If this is about Brexit then I think most of what the ‘vote remain’ team said was lies ( & I genuinely do )

Remainers believe anything the guardian or C4 news feeds them ( or whatever pro remain media they follow )
They believe it because they want to believe it. Just like millions of people believe in what Nigel Farage says. Or the daily mail etc.

Thank you Kandinsky for this valuable contribution, which totally proves the point of the OP.