Another announcement

And for those who do get jobs, they’ll be paying for the lockdown spending for the rest of their lives. But I think they don’t think about this, they live for today.

The saddest thing Jane10 is that the young people who are spreading the virus are the very group who will be affected the most in the long run. When they can’t get jobs after university, apprenticeship, or college, it will be because jobs have disappeared under the long lockdowns. I wonder if they’ll regret their behaviour then.

No matter what restrictions are outlined for Christmas large numbers of people will just ignore them. Add that to the thousands of students criss-crossing the country on their way home and there will be a huge surge in case numbers in January.
Young people will just plain go out and socialise and make sure the virus stays around. I just dont know how to make them care enough to change their ways just for a few months.

IMO Starmer hasn't just challenged the government, he's done plenty of criticising.

We don't know if a 2 week circuit breaker introduced 3 weeks ago, would have been sufficient so it's ridiculous to state that had the government done that, we wouldn't have a 4 week lock down now.

We only know for certain if any decision that's made is the right one or the wrong one once it's been implemented, and the results known.

I agree with those who feel it would be better for there to be continued restrictions over the Christmas period, to prevent a further lock down in the New Year.

I do not think it is easy to be the leader of the opposition as JenniferEccles has suggested.

Starmer has had to steer a course between challenging the government (which is the democratic purpose of an opposition) and not undermining the need for the public to obey orders. He has to both make it clear that the government has handled this very badly and at the same time encourage the population to take on board the (far too little, far too late) lockdown instructions. He quite rightly encouraged his MPs to vote in favour of the lockdown; unlike the Tory rebels who put party interest before national good.

True, maddyone.
I also am tired of all this fuss about Christmas. It is obvious we will not be back to anything like normal by then. Boris, as others have said, should tell it like it is We certainly don't want to be 'allowed' family get-togethers only to find infections increase massively afterwards. I think we should simply postpone Christmas until the spring. We could have another bank holiday in March or April, call it Christmas, and do all the Christmassy things then. Alternatively we could join Christmas to Easter (Eastmas?) and enjoy a longer than usual holiday. We need to be thinking out of the box on this.

I would say, look at every other country in Europe and most countries in the world, they’ve all fluctuated between lockdown, no lockdown, high infection, low infection. They’ve all had many deaths, except New Zealand, which has more land, far fewer people, and a much younger demographic than us.
How easy it is to criticise, or say how it should be done. I certainly haven’t applauded every move the government has made by a long chalk, but I have taken a look around the world, and seen what is going on everywhere. France has double our daily numbers of infection. It was reported yesterday that Denmark has a new strain of Coronavirus which is infecting humans and it’s coming from minks ( whether they should be farming minks is another question altogether) America is in complete turmoil, infections are up in Sweden, lockdowns in Italy, France, and Spain. Even the much lauded Germany has huge numbers of daily infections now.
We have to consider our situation against the whole picture. And the whole picture is not just the UK.

Charleygirl, you can dance in the street without breaking the rules. So long as you’re only dancing with members of your household, or maintaining social distancing with the neighbours

It’s the easiest thing in the world to be the leader of the party in opposition during such unprecedented times as a global pandemic isn’t it?

Starmer can spout all he likes about what should have been done when, but he will never have to carry the can if a decision, with the benefit of hindsight, turns out not to have been the best course of action.

Virtually every country in the world is facing the same dilemma of trying to save lives at the same time as protecting the economy for the years to come.

I am not one hundred percent behind the current lockdown, but then I haven’t been consulting scientists so, like everyone on here, I am not privy to all the facts.

Maybe we should all behave in a responsible way and not risk our lives, other people’s lives and the lives of NHS workers and, just for once not bother with Christmas which is just one day out of 365 days. We can have a huge celebration when this pandemic has ran it’s course.

Disappointing as it will be, I agree, Daisymae. People will soon be shopping for Christmas food, and need to have some idea of catering, and there will be those who need to book train tickets and so on.

At least if we know now that it's not happening, we can start to plan accordingly, and people won't feel let down at the last minute. Whatever happens, it really should be a UK-wide decision, though - there will be resentments and confusion if people in one part of the UK can have a family Christmas that is banned in another.

After all that I forgot to watch. I really think that the powers that be should give the message over Christmas homes should stay in isolation rather than encourage mixing in the current situation. It would end the uncertainty and let's face it, we all know it's a really bad idea. How will anyone be able to relax?

Also, wouldn't suggestions of a different approach to the pandemic be seen as unsupportive? The LP agreed at the start that they would adopt an 'in it together' approach, and not go against the government on principle.

I have no idea whether or not a circuit-breaker would have been effective, as I am not an expert, and it didn't happen; but it is simply untrue to say that no alternatives have been suggested, or that all Kier Starmer has done is criticise. Bringing him into a discussion of Johnson and his mishandling of the crisis is deflection, nothing more.

What other solutions did he suggest.... just be interested to know?

Actually thought it was Mark Drakeford’s idea to have a circuit breaker?

Absolutely right Laura

Ellianne

Bluebelle but we have to move forward and at least they have promised those who are on furlough further support until March. Also help for those self employed. And a homegrown vaccine might be on the cards. And there will be more training places for nurses and doctors. Personally I want to be optimistic and believe they are going the right thing. The

It's not true that all self-employed have been given help. Millions haven't, including me. We haven't had one penny, but still have bills to pay.

Had we gone with the earlier circuit breaker we would have been coming out of it now or next week, just in time for infections to rise over Christmas. A month long period of restrictions now may just get numbers down so that people can have some semblance of a Christmas. The local restrictions were worth a try while rates were low in other areas but unfortunately the ridiculous cries of north south bias made this line difficult to hold.
I do feel that the government have to balance health, economy and the unreasonable demand for family get togethers over Christmas.
It’s so much a case of trying to please all of the people all of the time. Whereas, even here on gransnet, we know you can’t please many people ever.

Ditto Gwyneth

Gwyneth

I haven’t heard Starmer offer any solutions though. All he appears to have done is criticise which is very easy to do when you’re in opposition. The government have made mistakes but I do feel for the Prime Minister. He’s damned if he does or damned if he doesn’t. How do we know the opposition would have done any better?

This is such a cop-out, though. You may as well ask what the Archbishop of Canterbury would have done, or how we know whether Ant and Dec would have done any better. It doesn't matter, as the lives of tens of thousands of people have been lost, and it is Johnson who is in charge. Asking about how others would have done things is so clearly an attempt to deflect from his ineptitude that it smacks of desperation.

Kier Starmer is not in a position to do anything other than ask questions of the PM, which, IMO, he has done with great restraint, given the disgraceful way that the pandemic has been handled. He has tried not to inflame the population, as it is important that there is as little public dissent as possible.

He has offered solutions - a 'circuit breaker' for one. When he makes suggestions he is accused of being unsupportive - if anything he is the one who is 'damned if he does and damned if he doesn't'.

Ellianne yes I agree we need to look forward and be positive and if I hear Cummins name again I think I’ll scream!

Bluebelle but we have to move forward and at least they have promised those who are on furlough further support until March. Also help for those self employed. And a homegrown vaccine might be on the cards. And there will be more training places for nurses and doctors. Personally I want to be optimistic and believe they are going the right thing. The

Keir Starmer suggested an earlier short" circuit breaker" which would have included the half term holiday. I am not his greatest fan by any means but let us not pretend that he has not made suggestions which have been sensible and have now been taken up by the Government, who, have dithered, not for the first time.
Simon Stevens was very good, as were his graphics.

Think I am on the wrong thread....