Conservative party internal investigation into racism

Davidhs - if you don't understand that you are repeating antisemitic tropes, I despair - again. That's a very offensive and inaccurate post - antisemitism again.

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Neither do I , maddyone, understand Davidhs point about the position in continental Europe

Incidentally Davidhs, my Jewish friends are not as you describe, low profile, with their names as the only clue. They are a mixed bag, just like my friends of Muslim, Hindu or Christian background.
As for weather they support a homeland in Israel, my experience is yes of course they do. Their ancestors originate from that region. One of my close friends is from a family who fled pogroms in Poland at the turn of the last century. They chose the first name they saw on an ironmongers in Portsmouth as their "English " name. It was in fact, an unusual German name, which they still carry and caused some upset during WW2. Every member of their extended family who remained in Krakow was murdered in Auschwitz and yes, they all support a homeland in Israel. Though they are rooted in England.

Davidhs What has been the position in continental Europe then? I don’t understand what you mean.

No Lucca, it’s not anti Semitic to criticise the actions of the government of Israel, but as Iam64 and Callistemon have already said, using the Palestinian situation as a stick to beat Jewish people is the anti Semitic behaviour.

Germany has apologised for the actions of their government during fascism, Tony Blair apologised for events during the time of the British Empire, apologies have been requested for behaviour towards black people historically, other countries and groups have apologised for behaviour towards various groups in the past. None of the apologisers were in any way involved with the actual behaviour that was being apologised for, so I don’t understand your friend’s position biba.

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Biba70, if your deleted post wasn't antisemitic, why was it deleted?
RamblingRose22 has quoted one of the 11 definitions of antisemitism in the IHRA definition is "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel".

I can't repeat the deleted post but imo, it fitted into that description and I suspect that's why it was deleted.

Lucca, of course it isn't antisemitic to criticise the actions of the Israeli government. Callistemon puts it well, it is antisemitic to use the actions of the Israeli government as a stick to beat Jewish people with.

One of the 11 examples of antisemitism in the IHRA definiton is -

"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."

I didn't see the post that was deleted so I don't know what was said about Jews or anti-semitism, but I've never understood why anyone would imagine that Jews living outside Israel and with no vote in Israeli elections are responsible for or even tacitly support the policies of the Israeli Government.

ticking bird ''Maybe it needs pointing out that there are many hardworking, decent, kind Jewish people and stigmatising them with ‘Palestine’ goes a long way in furthering division. The essence of that post was Jews deserve all they get because of the ongoing conflict in that area and the current Israeli government’s policies. It’s antisemitism clearly.''

now change the words with 'Muslims' and 'heinous crimes committed by mad men.

And that is the very point- that people refuse to see Islamophobia in the UK, and in the Conservative party. Because all are tarred with the same brush.

I have agreed wholeheartedly that Imams and Muslim communities should decry those awful crimes very loudly. When I said this to a Muslim friend the other day, he repied 'why should I apologise for a crime committed by madmen- if I apologise for them, I somehow make myself part of the problem. I am NOT' - and I see what he means.

I also believe the Jewish Communities and their leaders should totally distance themselves from the atrocious and criminal expansion into Palestine, and the heinous crimes committes against the Palestinian people. Some do - very loudly- others choose to close a blind eye and keep quiet.

And the point is- many are quite rightly appalled about antisemitism- but totally blind to Islamophobia. And the question is 'why'? Should all Muslims carry the responsibility of those terrible and inexcusable crimes?

Back to the OP - why has the Tory investigation and report been shelved? It was supposed to be independent- so it is not because the Government is too busy with Covid and BRexit.

To qualify: Using the Palestinian situation as a stick with which to beat Jewish people is anti-semitic.

Categorically no.

Now I am not being controversial here but is being anti the actions of Israel the same as being anti Semitic? I don’t think it is but interested to hear others views.

This is part of the problem; people can’t see when they are being anti Semitic.

Of course it was not antisemitic, in any way shape or form. It is the reality- and no, not all Jewish people carry the responsibility of the situation in Israel.

As for my last post- yes people are refusing to see that islamophobia is alive and well, particularly in some sections of the population- and very much so in the Conservative Party- who have chosen to shelve the investigation and report, for very good reasons. And it is hypocritical in the extreme.

Christians come in all guises- and the difference between Christian denominations, especially when looking at the whole world and not just the UK- is culturally massive. Same for other religious groups, be they Jewish or Muslim.

Sorry Iam64 I didn’t realise.

Totally agree tickingbird

tickingbird, the post you referred to was antisemitic and has been removed.

I suggest it’s the terrorists themselves stigmatising decent, law abiding Muslims. Maybe if these majority Muslims took to the streets protesting against these atrocities instead of the typical protest in London a few days ago, it would go a long way towards changing peoples’ attitudes.

Maybe it needs pointing out that there are many hardworking, decent, kind Jewish people and stigmatising them with ‘Palestine’ goes a long way in furthering division. The essence of that post was Jews deserve all they get because of the ongoing conflict in that area and the current Israeli government’s policies. It’s antisemitism clearly.

Most Muslims are peaceful, normal families. Terrorists want to cause division between us and them and not have Muslims "westernised". Every time anyone says "this group doesn't behead people or blow people up" or something similar, you contribute to the terrorist cause and stigmatise good families.

The Jewish Community were told to stay indoors remove all visible signs of their religion including skull caps last night in Vienna, after multiple gun attacks.

Their are reports of up to seven (?) dead and multiple injuries.

Biba70 - no one is accusing your Muslim colleagues of being responsible for the heinous crimes of a few brainwashed madmen. You are really being unreasonable on this one.

You're accusing my Muslim colleagues and friends who were born, live and work here of being responsible for the heinous crimes of a few brainwashed madmen

Really? I haven’t seen that. Who’s accused your Muslim colleagues of being responsible? Think that’s you being disingenuous.

You're accusing my Muslim colleagues and friends who were born, live and work here of being responsible for the heinous crimes of a few brainwashed madmen.

biba70 Perhaps if you looked at history through equitable eyes you might find it illuminating.