Update on Help hold the government to account for Covid-19 care home deaths *Title edited by GNHQ*

I think the government should be held to account but pragmatically I don’t think this Action is the way to do it.

Believing that is your right Greeneyedgirl and your well argued post does not make you appear right-wing - or any "wing" for that matter.

Equally it is her right to follow what she thinks she should do and others right to support her in doing it.

Thank you for reminding me about today's More of Less - I love it. Today was one of those days when getting up to longer than normal so I missed it. I will go onto BBC Sounds and catch up.

I am far from right wing GG and do have a lot of sympathy for the need to take this action because the government does not seem to be learning from its mistakes, but continues to cover up for example, the PM still giving misleading stats about discharge of elderly from hospital into Care Homes. I have a 95year old wheelchair bound mother who as luck would have it, is cared for at home by 2 carers visiting 4 times a day, and has been unaffected by the virus. It could have been a different story.

Listening to”More or Less” on radio 4 this morning, they gave a resume and time line of the epidemic in this country. This is a factual programme and worth a listen.

Clearly this government got things wrong at the outset of the epidemic, insufficient testing, late in lockdown, and not quarantining people entering the country being the biggest errors. Many scientists and statisticians however, informing the government also got it wrong.

Did they perform worse than other countries? It’s hard to say at this stage because it’s is not over, by a long way, but so far we have had way more deaths per 100,000 of population, but many European countries had many more deaths in care homes.

I think the government should be held to account but pragmatically I don’t think this Action is the way to do it.

She states that she is launching this action to hold the government to account for not protecting elderly people in care.

It seems rather than not understanding some are choosing not to understand. When you were working, if you did not carry out the tenets of your job you would be "held to account". This might show itself in many ways, including internal investigation or prosecution, etc. It is not that different for a government.

What some appear to be saying, in rather a straw man attempt to distract from what happened, is there is no expectation that the government protects all its citizens to the best of this countries abilities.

There is. They are there to do the jobs of policy-making, and public expenditure. That they can be held to account on these is, and always has been, uncontested. We have parliamentary committees that and we have had both internal and external investigations. It is true that this government has tried to stop the law having any power over its actions but currently they can still investigate through a judicial review.

When the government takes office it is the government of all the country - not just those who voted for it. The highest level of accountability is the protection of life. This has often meant protection from a human enemy but protection of life also applies in this instance.

It seems to me that those who declare they don't understand (which is quite possible) are often muddying their argument by trying to present the evidence on here, and then suggest we should not be discussing it. The great right-wing shut down of debate.

There is a great deal of evidence to say that the government did not protect those in Care Homes. This needs to be presented judicially. We can argue the toss all we like but that will not get us an answer. The lady putting this forward is trying to get a judicial ruling. That, at the moment, is all most of us need to know.

Silly people don't deserve replies, generally.

You 'dared' but you got it completely wrong. There are layers of meaning to this whole situation far beyond the simplest black and white version. Still. Stick with what you know.

janeainsworth

I’m tired of your rude assumptions about not just me but other posters as well GG.

How dare you assume that I support this government?

How dare you assume that I don’t believe the government should be held to account?

How dare you accuse me of having no idea of responsibility?

I have only one thing to add, which I forgot to include in my last post.

The job of holding the Government to account is that of Her Majesty’s Opposition.

What a pity we have not had an effective one for at least the last four years.

I’m out

My you are in a paddy. Do I hear the sounds of distant stamping feet. I actually "dare" to say what your posts suggest - I notice you didn't quote the actions you are attributing to me.

If the government breaks the law that is the job of the judiciary. Yes the opposition's job is to hold them to account but that is also our job and that of the press. We were not put here to be sycophantic toadies.

Greeneyedgirl

Absolutely Callistemon. There is already enough available evidence to highlight the errors which occurred, and it seems to be eminently the sensible solution.
But............What are the obstacles in not taking this course I wonder?
Firstly it needs acknowledgement that mistakes were made, and those in power seem incapable of doing so.

Exactly, which is why things end up being taken through the courts.

Absolutely Callistemon. There is already enough available evidence to highlight the errors which occurred, and it seems to be eminently the sensible solution.
But............What are the obstacles in not taking this course I wonder?
Firstly it needs acknowledgement that mistakes were made, and those in power seem incapable of doing so.

I have been, on more than one occasion, been a witness at a Public Inquiry.

It is quite an intimidating experience, being put "in the Dock" for two and a half hours being interrogated by a rotwieller barrister employed by a Council, but very satisfying when we won!.

If Public Inquiries produced results which were acted upon in full or lessons were in fact learnt from them and people brought to account, perhaps they might be worth the financial cost and lives might be saved in future.

However, would the vast sums not be better spent on putting right what everyone knows went wrong and improving services in the future.

greeneyedgirl and janeainsworth ?

Thanks greeneyedgirl

I agree in many ways with what you say jainainsworth. It is difficult to know what Cathy Gardner's aims are.

She states that she is launching this action to hold the government to account for not protecting elderly people in care.

I have no legal expertise but usually I guess these type of actions would be to obtain financial redress. In this case it seems more about hoping to get a public hearing and hold the government to account in court, but realistically I don't think it will happen.

However I can understand the anger, frustration, and impotence she, and many who lost relatives feel when the government doesn't even acknowledge obvious mistakes made and offer any sort of apology. If they did they would be respected far more, but many have lost confidence in anything they say now.

As to a Public Inquiry. Going by past history of such inquiries, they take years to come to fruition and findings are very often not fully disclosed and swept under the carpet, resulting in little learning or change in the long run.

I’m tired of your rude assumptions about not just me but other posters as well GG.

How dare you assume that I support this government?

How dare you assume that I don’t believe the government should be held to account?

How dare you accuse me of having no idea of responsibility?

I have only one thing to add, which I forgot to include in my last post.

The job of holding the Government to account is that of Her Majesty’s Opposition.

What a pity we have not had an effective one for at least the last four years.

I’m out

I’m still unclear about what Cathy Gardner’s aims are.

And I am unclear why you are unclear unless you do not think people who are paid to run the country should not be held to account.

No, I don't think you are a lawyer and I don't think you understand, in the way that the law would, the taking of responsibility. But I truly know no way of explaining it to you if you have no concept of responsibility or if you do not believe a government should be held to account for their action or inaction. Or perhaps you only believe that governments you didn't vote for should be held to account. I have no idea so cannot help you.

The people who are backing this do not believe we got ordinary, decent competence and want the incompetence and lack of decency uncovered and want this exposed. I do appreciate that you cannot believe this ever to be true of this government so perhaps that is why we may need a judicial ruling although, no doubt, even that will not be enough.

GG This is from the case page:
What are we going to do about it?My lawyers have written to the Secretary of State, NHS England and Public Health England pointing out their legal duty to protect life. My lawyers have requested that they accept responsibility for their unlawful conduct that has contributed to the death and serious illness of my father, patients, healthcare and care workers. If the proposed defendants refuse to accept responsibility then I will commence legal proceedings

I’m still unclear about what Cathy Gardner’s aims are.
Essentially, she’s making a formal complaint about the policies of Matt Hancock, NHS England, and Public Health England during the Covid Crisis, asserting that their acts and omissions amounted to unlawful conduct.

I’m not a lawyer, and would welcome contributions from any GNetters who have a legal background.

Writing to someone and pointing out they may have acted unlawfully doesn’t constitute a legal process. Whether illegal acts and omissions have occurred is for a court of law, or perhaps the Health and Safety Executive, to decide.

As for litigation, the aim of that is usually financial compensation, rather than making sure any mistakes are not repeated in the future.

I am sure there are more effective ways to hold the Government to account than paying lawyers to pursue a route of doubtful value, through the Health Select Committee and a public enquiry.

We can all write to our MPs and ultimately we all have a vote. The choice is ours.

To quote from a recent article in the Economist: “Here is [a lesson] for voters: when choosing a person or party to vote for, do not underestimate the importance of ordinary, decent competence.”

Not letting government off the hook but most of tehse homes are privately owned and run and pay shareholders from profits,surely those profits SHOULD have been providing the PPE many of the homes didn't have .As a matter of course you would expecy any business to have the health and safety of their staff and inhabitants as being the most important thing on their list.Two homes locally have lost 10 of the elderly in their care ,thats care that costs them £1000 a week ,the staff in both complained PPE was locked away and had to be "begged" for when the manager was on site .Then theres the home on Skye that imported staff from KENT after lockdown .The responsibility MUST be shared for the mismanagement of the homes these greedy owners should be prosecuted for their failure to protect the elderly in their care

Is excessive and unnecessary death "petty politics" now in the Tory wonderland?

I agree with Sparkling. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I'm no Tory but the amount of money and help made available to people has been amazing. The petty politics should be put to one side, I had to give up watching the Covid updates because of the constant gripping and truly stupid questions being asked.
Any shade of Government would have made mistakes and I see no point in rehashing, just move on and lets get back on our feet again.

My OP Jane10 was about the failings of this government, the additional unnecessary deaths that has created and what we can do about it.

If you decide to discuss that do let us know.

Sorry, my previous post should have been aimed at @quizqueen.

Sorry. That should have been The Way Ahead is Tory of course.

Interesting that QQ has Not returned to back up her comment

So, you don't believe in holding governments to account then Sparkling. That sort of thinking ferments revolution. Of course we have to hold them to account. So far The Only Way Is Tory lot have blamed
- the relatives of the dead elderly
- the homes
- and now you are having a go at those who want to find out the truth.

Where will this sink to next I wonder.

And you're off on another subject! Back to the usual then.