Sensible discussion on Labour Leadership hopefuls

POGS, apologies I must have missed your post @15:45 yesterday as we were off on what turned to be a wonderful late afternoon and evening with many surprises coming from those my wife works with in the office and our family.

I will respond to your post, but after last evening I think we will be having an early night. ?

Grandad

To be fair to other posters I have also said the ' Labour Campaign for Trans Rights ' 12 point plan calling for 'Expulsions ' of Labour Members who they deem as being transphobic is going to cause problems.

I think the Party and the leadership candidates Nandy, Long Bailey, Raynor and Butler may have lost votes by signing as the 12 point plan is not only dictatorial it is not as clear cut as threatening expulsions over subjects such as hatred/racism/antisemitism/Islamophobia.

You’ve done it again Grandad in your response to Iam. It’s nothing to do with gay rights. Why don’t you just do what any sensible intelligent WOMAN would do? Admit you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about and ask us for a reading list? Oh and ditch the shovel

Thanks Iam.
Grandad Your ignorance of what this issue is about is clear from your post. This is nothing to do with gay rights - for heavens sake. It’s about the redefinition of women and a denial of the material reality of biological sex. As such it impacts on lesbians and straight natal women but is not a gay issue. And you really don’t have a clue about my current politics or my political history.
Why don’t you just admit you have no idea what this issue is about or the struggles of the past few years. Your response is so ‘male’ in the very worst sense of the word.

Iam64, please point out to me where in this thread I have stated that right wing Labour supporters have raised lesbian & gay issues to detract from RLB's campaign.

You will not be able to do that because I have in no way stated or inferred that. ?

Grandad

'that being the threats to resign from the party by some Labour MPs if Long-bailey is elected.'
---

I haven't seen or heard that specific point.

I must however say that if there are voices saying that there were no doubt plenty of Conservative MP's saying the same if Boris won the Conservative Leadership. Leadership contests bring out the claws in all parties.

Did you see my post wed 15.45. Hope you had an enjoyable evening.

Grandad, I think you may be a long way off the point in suggesting that "gay matters" in the Labour Party are the same as the transgender issues under discussion.

Dh is a member of the party, he will vote for starmer, although he is notororious for voting for the candidate who doesnt win. He has backed the loser in every leadership election since he was 18[. He probably doesnt have grandads extensive knowledge of the labour movement, as he was a parliamentary candidate in the nineties.

suziewoozie, in regard to your post @19:35 today, if you feel so strongly around gay matters in the Labour party why do you not join the movement and fight for what you wish to see in the movement brought forward as policy. I will not share my thoughts on the matter on demand of yourself, as it obvious from many of your previous posts on this forum that you contain no support for the Labour movement whatsoever and in all probability never will have.

Therfore and as stated, I will not divulge my thoughts on the matter(s) you have demanded I should in regard to the Labour movement as I feel I would be wasting my time and effort in such posts.

A word of support for sooziewoozie and galaxy so far as the complicated issue of self ID is concerned. I find the debate challenging because of course I sympathise with trans people and their struggles. I don't want to see women's sporting events dominated by trans men, it isn't a level playing field.

I find the suggestion that trans people should automatically have right of entry to women's prisons or refuges. My lived experience helped me understand what being female has meant biologically and socially. I don't dispute the difficulties people who have long believed they were born into the wrong body. We are at the very early stages of understanding this and I struggle with the idea that hard fought for female spaces should simply be surrendered.
This issue has been given centre stage during the current leadership debate. It doesn't surprise me at all that Grandad reaches the conclusion this has been raised by right wing Labour supporters to detract from RLB's campaign. Honestly!

POGS, in regard to your post @13:21 today, unfortunately I was unable to view the latest leadership debate as I have been working. However, to give you my thoughts on one of the issues that have come to the fore in the last few days, that being the threats to resign from the party by some Labour MPs if Long-bailey is elected.

I was unaware of the above until I seen it on my phone today while having a cup of coffee in the office. In that, my first thoughts were if these MPs wished to help Rebbeca Long-Bailey get chosen as leader they could not have stated anything of greater aid.

All members of parliament are elected to their position by democratic vote, and for such persons to state that THEY will not accept the outcome of such a democratic process outside of their own election beggars belief.

I believe that the above demonstrates the levels that those on the right of the Parliamentary Labour Party are prepared to sink to, and in that, they may have very much raised the prospects of Long-Bailey gaining the party leadership if only by way of members now voting for her just to see the back of these MPs.

The Labour movement is now once again a socialist organisation, and the above MPs do not in any way reflect that and should have gone or been removed three years ago in the same way as Johnson removed the Brexit rebels in his party.

Do you really know anything at all Grandad about the whole self ID debate that has been going on for the last few years? Do you know about the TRAs who are facilitating women losing their jobs? Do you know about Woman’s PlaceUK and why it was set up? Do you know why the LGB Alliance has recently set up? Do you know what the cotton ceiling is?

My dd has a vote ( affiliate member) and is incandescent about candidates signing up to the pledge. She is not the only one judging by MN and Twitter. If the Labour Party does not support the rights of natal women, then everything else it stands for is hollow rubbish.

Thanks Galaxy not just me then?

Sorry grandad I had no idea you were in charge of of threads on gransnet. I have voted labour for 30 years, I am perfectly entitled to join a thread about a party that I have supported for so long. I spent years pounding the streets delivering leaflets and attending meetings. I am sorry you think womens rights are not worthy of your attention, but they are important to me and I want to know what the candidates think about this issue. I am devastated that a party I have supported for so long is unable to debate such an important issue.
The subject we are talking about has been aired on radio 4 and newsnight and discussed by all 4 candidates across the media. I presume you complained to all of those outlets for daring to discuss it.

Grandad what an incredibly pompous nasty post. My posts today spring from my feminism and passionate belief in the rights of women . How dare you, a man, tell me that my posts are designed to divert attention away from the Government and the Conservative party. What an arrogant arrogant mansplaining post. I’ll post what I want where I want and I have every right to think that the issue of 3 of the leaders signing up to this pledge is of crucial importance in deciding the leadership. And I’m not alone. You know nothing of the experience of being a woman

It’s impossible to have a rational debate on self-Id. That time has gone. After setting the hare running ( with Maria Millar and Justine Greening) the Tories have now realised which way is up on this issue. Somehow Stonewall and the TRA have set the agenda and stolen the thunder. The starting point has to be first and foremost the preservation and safeguarding of the rights of natal women. Then examine how trans rights can be built onto that not displace that.

Suziewoozie, galaxy, in regard to your recent posts in this thread, as you are not members of the Labour movement, thankfully those of us that are long-standing members can just ignore your rantings.

Your posts today are obviously designed to divert attention away from the problems of the government and the Conservative party so perhaps it would be favourable if you employed your time in addressing the issues being expressed in the thread that has been opened on that matter.

There are forum members who are not Labour Party members or supporters who have been contributing regularly to this thread to which a reasonable debate it has been possible to engage in. However, you seem not to wish to see that sensible discussion which has been very much inline with the title of the thread continue it would appear.

I do think the gender question is one which does need to be properly addressed without reference to party politics.

It is a complicated issue.

One the one hand there are transgender people who have been troubled to the extent that they sought counselling, hormone treatment, were required to live as the opposite sex for two years, then underwent surgery and eventually emerged as the person they always felt they should be.

In my opinion these folk deserve to be recognised as members of their new gender.

On the other hand there is a flippant casual notion that anyone could just wake up one morning and decide to declare themselves as a member of the opposite sex. This nonsense has been promoted by the popular press and certain pressure groups and political parties have got themselves tied in knots over it.

We need to stand back and have a review of the research in this difficult area. It should not be resolved by sloganising or pressurising MPs into toeing some simplistic party line on what is a very difficult issue.

You’d think they’d stop and think as to why he left Stonewall to set up the Alliance

Its the authoritarian nature of it as well. You must believe what I believe. Laura Pidcock would be expelled under these pledges for a start. Have they learnt nothing, its utterly toxic to a politicians career. The last woman who was asked 'what is a woman' and couldn't respond lost her seat and the leadership of her party. You would think that alone would stop them even if they care nothing for womens rights.
You would think when you are describing one of the founding members of stonewall as being part of a hate group that you might stop and think.

Interesting, Suziewoozie.

GG if I were in the Labour Party under the new regime. ( except perhaps KS) I would be expelled for any of the following
Being a supporter of WomansPlace UK
Being a supporter of LGB Alliance
Supporting a campaign for high street shops to have women only changing rooms
Campaigning to have women’s sports only open to natal women
Campaigning for rape crisis centres and women's refuges be only open to and staffed by natal women
Campaigning for natal women only spaces in hospitals and mental health facilities
Campaigning for my right to request ( note the word) a natal women for my smear test or other gynae examination
And so on
Do I think there should be provision across a range of services and spaces for transwomen? Of course I do. They can damn well campaign for them like we natal women have.
Do I want to be in or support a party that is anti natal women? I sure as hell do not.

Suziewoozie. Mmm.

I watched the Victoria Derbyshire Show and I thought they all looked a tad fed up but during any Leadership contest there is a risk of over exposure. At one time whilst given the floor to answer a question Emily Thornberry said she had ' Zoned Out ' and I understood why.

I was not at all surprised all 4 would not trade with the USA whilst Trump is President but whilst that will sit very well with many others will see that as UK politicians now telling the Americans they voted for the wrong candidate as they told the British Voter they were wrong as to how they voted. Continuum of political elite over the plebiscite, basket of deplorables as Clinton called them. I wonder what the business world makes of the fact after Brexit Labour would not enter a trade deal with the USA, glad they are not in government I would think.

I think Lisa Nandy came over the best. Thornberry and Starmer like to speak about themselves too much. Starmer and Thornberry are very good at shifting their answers away from the question they were asked, I am being polite.

I think Lisa Nandy, Rebecca Long Bailey, Angela Raynor and Dawn Butler may face some loss of votes by signing the Labour Campaign for Trans Rights 12 point plan calling for ' Expulsions ' of Labour Members who they deem as being transphobic when many see themselves as feminists etc.