Sensible discussion on Labour Leadership hopefuls

But you have just added to the Groundhog Day Iam, by rehearsing the reasons why you believe the election went the way it did and adding a few of the usual prods along the way. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Perhaps Gaga or Grany can tell me why cutting power to police stations is such an excellent idea?

I'm with Iam on this. The country desperately needs an effective opposition to speak up for the many people who will really suffer from years of Tory government. If the Labour Party is ever to form a government, it needs to gain over 100 seats in the next election (especially after boundary changes). It needs to listen to the people who voted against it and work towards offering them a vote they think will be meaningful - it's got five years.

Iam is right about why people deserted Labour and it doesn't matter how much people who allegedly know better tell them they've made a mistake. They didn't like Corbyn and didn't trust him. They want positivity for their communities and Corbyn wasn't offering that. By treating them as "the poor", he was offering them unrealistic crumbs from the high table. In many of the former Labour areas which voted Conservative, a high percentage of people have been involved in the armed forces and Corbyn was not seen as patriotic.

I agree that Corbyn suffered from a negative press coverage, but that should have been foreseen. A more savvy operator would have had a better PR profile.

Iam64 I agree too and with growstuff

Unless this is recognised, Labour's future is in doubt as a cohesive opposition party and with no hope of every being voted in to form a government.

Lessons will not be learned, it seems.

I've a feeling that whatever anyone wants we are all going to have to wait for things to take their course.

100% GGMK3. No other way.

What keeps me awake at night though, is the effect this is having on those at the bottom of society. The real have-nots. No safety net anymore. Terrifying.

This general election was all about Brexit. The Labour held northern towns and cities voted leave in the 2016 referendum and in the 2019 election they demonstrated they still wished for that action to be carried out.

The Labour held London constituencies voted to remain and trying to bridge both sectors of Labour support both north and south proved to be impossible. Yes, Corbyn was a problem with many voters but Brexit was the overbearing problem that the Labour Party could not solve.

As for forum members talking of an effective opposition in the House of Commons, as I stated earlier in this thread, the Tory Party now have an overall eighty seat majority in parliament and for the next five years that majority will enable them to bring through any legislation they wish and no fine words in the House of Commons or anywhere else by any Labour politician will change that.

Therefore I believe that the Labour Movement should maintain its left-wing stance and policies for the foreseeable future while that wider Labour movement "sorts out" the problems there undoubtedly are in the Parliamentary Labour Party.

There will be no return to the days of Blair and "New Labour" for those days are gone and they will not be coming back, and in my book that's the way it should be.

It has been stated in this thread that a centre party could attract much of the UK electorate to its cause. However, if there was ever an opportunity for a centre party to make large gains in an election it was in the General Election just held. But what happened, Liberal Democrats eleven seats.

Therefore, perhaps those that are stating that the Labour Party should move to a more centre political stance could perhaps explain why in the light of the present plight of the Lib Dems, Labour should follow that course?

Indeed, I think we do have to be patient. I suspect that the Conservatives will not deliver what ex-Labour voters had hoped for, but who knows? I have a horrible feeling that they will manipulate public opinion a few months before the next election. It's going to need somebody with brains rather than just convictions or socialist purity to contradict that. Some of the current rhetoric doesn't fill me with optimism.

The Labour Party is up against the media and ingrained bigotry and needs to recognise that. It needs to recognise what its core voters really want and reach out to them, without descending into populist politics. It's going to need somebody with intelligence, who knows what he/she is doing.

If it can't do that, an awful lot of people in this country, who don't have a clue about socialist theory or economics, are going to suffer.

Good point, Grandad1943. Yet more advice, to through Labour ever more 'off track'.

No, grandad it wasn't all about Brexit. It was about rejecting Corbyn.

*to throw. Typo. Gah!

Yes it was about rejecting Corbyn.

growstuff Quote [No, grandad it wasn't all about Brexit. It was about rejecting Corbyn.]

growstuff prior to this Election being called the next ballot was not due until 2022. However, the General Election of 2019 was called early because of the "log jam" in parliament over Brexit.

Therefore, it was not "all about Corbyn" as you state growstuff, as we can all recall, I am sure, that for a month Boris Johnson went continuously around the country stating "get Brexit done" and that proved to be the winning rallying cry of the campaign.

I have spoken to MP’s in the North and South of England and in Wales, they all said Corbyn was the problem , many spoke of Brexit but more of Corbyn.

Johnson would have won without brexit. He has spent his life taking risks and knowing when to throw the dice so to speak. He would have always beaten Corbyn. I despise Johnson but if he said to put money on a horse I would do it.
It is absolute nonsense that the lib dems are a party of the centre they are a liberal party with all that that entails. I consider myself centre left and would have been more likely to vote corbyn than lib dem.

I can understand your opinion Galaxy. I'm a LibDem member and have voted LibDem for most of my adult life, but I'm deeply uncomfortable with the party at the moment. I'd love to be able to vote Labour with some conviction, but I'm afraid I can't. I don't think the current leadership really understands the issues people face or the communities people live in.

I live in a constituency where my vote really doesn't matter because the current Tory MP really could be a donkey with a blue rosette, but I really do understand why people faced with a choice of Johnson and Corbyn, voted Conservative. The Labour Party needs to face that and understand it, if it really is going to do any favours for the people in this country who are going to suffer.

Sorry grandad but people couldn't give a flying fig about union policies and decisions.

My daughter canvassed for Labour in a Labour safe seat, but even she came across people who said they wouldn't vote Labour because of Corbyn.

It was a mixture: Brexit, Labour voters disliking Corbyn and thinking he would be a disaster as PM and the same voters thinking that the policies were unworkable.

If it was as simple as getting rid of Corbyn, Labour would be a shoo in at the next election.

But OF COURSE it isn't that simple. Next time, there will be a HUGE push and focus with all the weight of big money, power, influence behind another 'keep Labour out and Tory in'. Insults, feigned problems within the LP, problems with the leader. As if the CP doesn't have the very same. BUT they have the weight of wealth, power and influence behind them.

It's just a game to the elite. Do whatever you have to, to get in. I don't know how you fight that. Not fairly, that is for sure.

Well, .perhaps we should put some facts into this discussion. Below is an extract from a YouGov survey on polling and why people voted the way they did.

Extract begins here:-
Brexit realignment was already a huge factor in the last general election, with 55% of Remainers voting Labour and 65% of Leavers voting Conservative.

This time around the Conservatives managed to boost their vote share amongst Leave voters to three quarters (74%) while the Labour Party actually reduced their share of Remain voters to just under half (49%). This fall came mainly at the hands of the Liberal Democrats, who increased their vote share amongst Remain voters to 21%, compared to 12% in 2017.

Full YouGov survey can be found by following this link:-

Apologies forgot to included the link which is here:-
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election

I'm afraid you only have to look at the right-wing papers for the last few years to see what the election was based on. They had pushed Brexit and undermined Corbyn so no surprise that was what came back on the doorstep. Let's hope they don't' live to regret it.

This will start again as soon as they feel they have their plans for the next election too.

Just for once, lemon, I actually find myself in partial agreement with you. But I think it was more than that. however, the post-mortems should now be ceasing so I'm not going further with this.

I think that the LP, and the Lib-Dems, should be looking at what they need to do to attract voters. And to be looking at more mature attitude to co-operating at the next GE if it's necessary. (Who knows, the tories might have well and truly stuffed up in 5 year's time). If we persist in using FPTP parties need to be clever about election tactics.

In the meanwhile, Labour needs to be more clever about how it presents its policies and how it appeals to the electorate.

Despite what Grandad wants I don't think that the LP will get anywhere if it persists with the Momentum approach. It needs to have absolutely appeared to have changed, even if its aims stay very similar to those of today. Another apparently 'far left' leader will not revive the party in any way.

Long Bailey is considering standing for the leadership, and so is Ian Lavery, both Corbynites