What now for Labour Party ?

Urmstongran, regard to your post @21:55 today, there is no guarantee at present that the Broader Labour movement in Britain will continue its close support of the Parliamentary Labour party. Following the General Election that discussion is only now just getting underway within the trades unions who very much provide the large amount finance required to maintain the Parliamentary Labour Party in Britain.

Should those unions decide to "pull the financial plug" on the Parliamentary Labour Party and take up a new left-wing political stance in the UK then it is very likely that the Labour Party could not survive in its present form.

The above is why I have stated that speculating on who the new Labour leader may be is pointless, as there is much "political water to flow under the bridge" prior to any new leader taking up office.

I live in the Workington Man constituency which was Labour and is now Conservative- I have usually voted Labour, our MP was very good but as with many others voted Conservative this time as I couldn’t bear the thought of Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister even though I am also a WASPI woman and a Remainer. Although I agree with some Labour policies Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum were not for me. I don’t usually post on the political forums but it’s so frustrating listening to those in the Labour Party in denial of the real reason they lost, blaming everything/everyone but their own party leaders. Okay, back to AIBU ?

Trish I agree with everything you say about Boris and the Conservative manifesto. Yet large numbers of traditional labour voters chose to vote Conservative. What is the evidence that this has been caused by a swing to right wing racist attitudes? The swing was surely so large that the evidence must be there in spades, if that is the cause.

Read and listen to the media, including those supporting Labour and they all say the same thing ‘It were Corbyn what lost it.’ whether it was him, personally, or those who pulled his strings, I cannot tell.

Grandad I do not support the Conservative party. I have never in my life voted for them and I doubt I ever will, but I will also say the same thing about Labour.

All I am saying is that the proportion of Labour voters in the working population is probably around a third, yet the unions are needed to serve all the working population and currently it has the Labour party in its pocket and its executives are usually heavily committed to the Labour party. This means many who should be in unions do not join because they see the Unions as too committed to one political ideology.

All of which I said in my previous post but you chose to misunderstand it.

I just believe that the links between Labour and the unions should be looser and that the unions should be more pragmatic in their political outlook.

I agree Urmstongran and he can control still

If it’s Rebecca Long-Bailey .... they never learn, do they?

A female Corbyn - puppet of Momentum.

M0nica in regard to your post @21:19 today, we can only take it from your comments that you do not wish to see the full range of the political spectrum represented in the overall body politic in Britain.

You support the Tory party at the present time, but it may well be that at some time in the future that may well not be the case and you would wish to have the full range of left and right thinking available to you for support.

As more than eighty percent of Trade Union Members pay the political levy but obviously many of them did not poll for Labour in the General Election. However, under the new legislation, each one of those members has had to be approached individually to sign a form stating they wish to opt into paying the political levy.

In that, those activists have convinced those members that the retention of a socialist party in great Britain is a political necessity even if they as an individual may not at present support that party in any polling.

That argument 80% of those members agreed with and signed up to. But obviously Monica you cannot subscribe to that.

However, again quite some achievement by those in the main lay union activists.

M0nica It isn't "blaming" the voters to look at what worked in the election. It is simply examining the process and there is no doubt that Boris has a media profile other than his political one. Should I ignore that because it might be regarded as condescending to draw attention to it? There was very little detail in the Conservative manifesto and some of it was wrong, he didn't discuss it, he didn't take part in interviews and he didn't comment on real issues. That needs to be looked at as well. Blaming Corbyn may salve some people's consciences but it isn't the entire story. The MSM played their part and some right wing elements in the North came to hold sway. In the past when poverty has increased there has been a resurgence of the right. It is possible this is happening now. Just now EU migrants are being blamed for many employment issues, once we are Brexited who will be at fault then? To blame one man for what has happened is not just over simplyfying things it is closing your eyes to something you may find distasteful.

Grandad I objected to paying my money to a political levy which will be paid to a party I do not support. If members, who do support the party wish to pay the levy, that is fine by me.

I am, and have always been a supporter of the trade unon movement and I think it is needed now more than ever, but unions tend to put themselves over as, more than anything, being politically strongly to the left and pushing ideologies and policies, that put off many potential members.

The strong links between unions and the Labour party also invites some of the anti-union legislation. I would prefer to see the links between Labour and unions to be more distant with the unions having a strong worker related social policy, but seen to be prepared to work with any political party that will support its concerns.

Thank you, pinkquartz, you saw immediately what I meant. I knew I had expressed it clearly. I think GGMK2, like other disciples uses the usual socialist tactic of when someone disagrees with them, taking a few words out of context and then giving those words a meaning they did not have and castigating the writer for holding those views.

Alan Johnson

‘ either we ditch the momentum cult or labour becomes a cult itself’

Monica, you seem to object to union members paying a political levy along with their standard union subscriptions.

Therefore, i will ask a question I asked earlier in this thread and to which no one has provided an answer. That being who or what organisation would provide the huge financial resources required in these times to maintain an effective socialist political party in Britain today.

My answer to the above is that only a socialist organisation such as the trade union movement in Great Britain will and can provide that finance which of course the Right of politics in Britain via the Tory Party have done all they can to stop.

Fifteen anti-trade union bills have been brought against those unions since 1979, but those unions have survived and overcome the implications of each one and still have a membership of over six and a half million. They have also kept the Labour Party in being at the same time.

Now that is a story the Tory party do not wish told.

Yes to Yvette, no to Starmer he is linked to brexit. I hope a back bencher but I fear it will be someone from the front bench.

....Not listening to the Voters.
You will not make anything better for this country by ignoring people like myself.

Monica is saying to you that you blame the voters, yes you almost despise the voters......
yes you do.

and yes you do sound like disciples. You talk in the Labour Party jargon and then wonder why you are turning people off.

I keep repeating it is up to the Labour Party to enter the 21st century and listen to the people who have turned their back on you.
and stop with all the heavy political speeches it is boring and puts people off.

Monica I agree with you particularly your firt paragraph, I thought that when JC addressed Glastonbury, he was trying to garner the youth vote, but many of those were the priviliged ones, just to be there costs quite a bit. I know my husband's grandchildren are very much of that ilk plus one of my own sons, lovely undoubtedly, but all went from top West London "state" schools on to Russell Group Universities and JC followers, well a couple of them are, but quite honestly the part of West London where they live and grew up is at the very epi centre of privilege.

Meanwhile on the doorsteps of northern towns JC was going down like a bucket of sick, and the quiet people of the red wall constituencies, not part of the metropolitan elite or Twittershpere, who make all the noise, boy that phrase "chattering classes" was it ever more apt, just got out there and cast their vote. No doubt fed up of being patronised, marginalised and seen as a homegeneous downtrodden mass, too unintelligent to make proper choices. Indeed Caroline Flint has alleged that Emily Thornberry made the comment to a northern colleague "so glad my constituents are not as stupid as yours" which Ms Thornberry denies, well she can hardly sustain two class ridden gaffes, one's bad enouogh.

I definitely think the Labour party needs to re-engage with who they set themselves up for in the first place, a London elite didn't exist then, although even as far back in the 1940s George Orwell recognised the socialists who would align themselves to left wing causes and apologised all the time for being English.

The devastation of the Labour vote can't be underestimated. It's shocking that the LP was wiped out in its heartlands, in the very places where a Labour government is most needed.

I voted for Yvette Cooper with Andy Burnham as my 2nd choice in the campaign won by Jeremy Corbyn. I've often wondered how much better shape the LP would be in if either of those candidates had won rather than JC

Thank goodness there is to be a new leader. There seems to be a battle between the moderates and those who'd like to see someone like Long Bailey replacing JC.
My view is a strong, moderate leader is needed if the LP is ever to be in government again. I like Lisa Nancy, it's a shame the MP for Leigh lost her seat, she was impressive. I've long admired Jess Phillips but recognise she is disliked by those who want someone like Corbyn to replace him.
Keir Starmer and Yvette Cooper maybe?

Here we go again. Blame the voters, only capable of judging the party leaders on what they saw in the media in the few weeks of the election campaign, they are racist and not idealistic. Oh, then of course there is the necessary swipe at older people, poor old dears unable to deal with policies, it is because their legs are aching. For heaven's sake this is Gransnet you are posting on.

Do you not see that those are the kinds of attitudes that lost you the election? Ordinary working people and older people are not goldfish with three second memories they are people who have seen everything in the media about Boris. They know he is a liar and a turncoat with more children that he can immediately remember, but they are quite capable of making measured judgments on facts and impressions gathered over several years and discussed with those around them. After all that they decided to take the risk of voting Conservative because they had far more confidence in Boris than in Jeremy. Corbyn, who is seen as anti-semitic, supporting terrorism, unpatriotic and incapable of organising a tea party at an allottment meeting. I won't say p*ss up in a brewery in deference to his temperance.

He is a man who voted against his party 400+ times but conspired with his cronies, to oust any Labour MP who dared to disagree with him. Even the dimmest of voters cannot help but note and remember these things.

Read today's Observer if you can bear to.

The Labour party lost an election it could have won ...

You don't know that Monica and it's far too soon to make suppositions. Calling people "party disciples" is unhelpful. Do you really think, or expect everyone else to think that anyone who shows an interest in the politics of a particular party is a "disciple". Are you a "disciple" of the party you voted for? It's insulting and unnecessary and does not develop and discussion just silly arguments. Thankfully GNHQ finally took down the last thread that was based on name-calling and individual bias.

Anniebach, what part of my above statement is not true?

I have stated in this thread that Gig Economy terms of employment began prior to the Blair administration taking office. However, it very much grew and flourished under Blairs administration. Zero hours Contracts were similar under Blair's auspices, that is how poor employers got around the full implications of paying the minimum wage.

And i repeat Blair did nothing to reduce the effects of those terms of working on families throughout the UK.

Instead Blair, Brown & Co Hob-knobbed with the Bankers, very wealthy Non-Doms and even Rupert Murdoch.

Some socialist government, and the Labour party will not be returning to those times.

Oh I agree with you about the leader M0nica but I also beieve (see my earlier posts) that much of the impression people had of Boris was not based on his political record but upon his earlier TV appearances. Much the same thing happened in the US with Trump. In future then only a party with a high profile celeb leader will succeed, policies are a thing of the past, as are TV interviews and trying to convince the electorate. How you encourage people, especially older people to engage with policies again I'm not sure. I also think there is a disturbing right wing resurgence amongst ordinary people which really hasn't been seen for a long time It involves in some places marches of the EDL who have support in working class areas. All working class people are not idealistic and some are racist.

grandad43 you said the following, it wasn’t true.

‘growstuff, in regard to your post @18:41 today, under the Tony Blair Labour administration working people and their families witnessed the introduction of Zero Hours Employment Contract and the beginnings of Gig Economy terms of employment.

The Labour party lost an election it could have won, if it had not been spending all its time talking to the metropolitan elite, people who are in well paid jobs in and around London, but rather like appearing edgy and woke by supporting Labour and being really left wing, they'll be alright jack when everything goes wrong.

From day 1 everyone but the party disciples knew that Corbyn and Momentum were disliked, feared and despised by ordinary voters and once Boris became PM and embraced Brexit, with quiet relief they were able to use it as an excuse for not voting Labour. Now they have done it once, unless the Labour party totally reforms itself, those voters will find that voting Conservative may well find that really it was not so bad.

Looking at what was in the Conservative manifesto, and the fact that austerity has finished and Brexit is nearly done. I suspect that Boris will steer the party away from the right-wing extremists of the ERG and become more centrist. Now he has persuaded so many multi-generational Labour voters to vote Conservative, he will want to keep them. The fact that he spent this weekend visiting the midland and northern seats his party has won from Labour is the first step of that journey.

Anniebach in regard to your post @19:30 today, what good is it having a legislated hourly rate if your employer decides they will not be giving you any hours of work this week?

Also, the gig economy did evolve prior to the Blair administration coming to power. However, it very much began to flourish during his premiership, and he and his cabinet cohorts did nothing to control that growth.

Instead of getting to grips with the above, he "hob-knobbed" with bankers, the very wealthy and even Rupert Murdoch while many working families came under the stain and financial conditions the above brought about.

I agree with Anniebach except I will add that many of the MP's added to the Corbyn effect of "Not trusted"

Not the policies but the MP's

from today's Guardian "The party needs to reconnect with working-class self-help, and leave behind the Big State"

this is what I am talking about.
Glad I am not alone.

growstuff, the unions generally kept very quiet about the political levy. many people like you did not even realise they were paying the levy and fewer that they could opt out. Fortunately I did, but they did not like me doing it.

As for accents, RP is a regional accent for some people. I thought accent snobbery was way in the past. Regional accents are used so widely in adverts and public announcements. All I ask of anyone is that, whatever their accent they speak clearly and distinctly and are easily comprehensible.

trisher it wasn't policies that lost you the election, it was your leader. However much people liked quite a few of your policies, they had no confidence in Jeremey Corbyn and faced with a choice between him and Boris was considered the better man. Unpalatable, galling but the facts. See today's Observer.