Johnson and Brexit

Boosgran Sat 27-Jul-19 20:56:13

Don't be personal. I am not being "silly" in wondering what you thought that added to the conversation but you are being rude.

No, don’t be silly. I’m simply stating that the number of people that voted to leave was 17.4 million and not 17 million. ?

It was 17.4 actually. [Sat 27-Jul-19 19:51:45]

So are you suggesting that 17.4 million is "the country as a whole", Boosgran because that is what we were trying to determine? The total number of UK Parliamentary electors in December 2018 was 45,775,800.

One of the important wins will be to resume our full voting membership of the World Trade Organisation. (Sat 27-Jul-19 11:24:03)

What is the advantage of this? I am sure Yorath0 that you understand as well as I do that John Redwood is extremely biased when it comes to leaving the EU or remaining in it. So I looked for a more impartial report. "The costs and benefits of leaving the EU: trade effects"[1] is a long and interesting report and worth reading. It will certainly take you away from the "we are right, they are wrong" view although I appreciate you may not be open to such an argument.

What it does tell us is that the general welfare of us all will be affected negatively by twice as much if we have a hard Brexit and move to WTO rules as we would if we had a soft Brexit although, of course, that would also affect us when compared to staying in.

Obviously, there are perceived benefits to leaving outside the downside of these economic losses. But I do not see any argument for this which would not equally support a reform of the EU.

[1]The costs and benefits of leaving the EU: trade effects by Swati Dhingra, Hanwei Huang, Gianmarco Ottaviano, João Paulo Pessoa, Thomas Sampson, John Van Reenen

It was 17.4 actually.

Well 17 million voted for Brexit, yet we’ve got a population of 66 million, so that’s not the whole country is it? About 70% don’t want Brexit or aren’t that bothered. Seems like some believe that if you shout loud enough people will think you speak for everyone. Stop believing the Faragist lies.

I find it hard to understand why the majority on this site seem[s] to be 'remainers' and yet the country as a whole supports our leaving the EU. (Sat 27-Jul-19 12:04:32

So how are you defining "the country as a whole" RosieLeah?

It sounds very much as if you are seeing half the country (or two-thirds by another measure) as no longer citizens. But then I do think this is exactly how some Leave voters see us, stripped of our citizenship and all its rights for not agreeing with them. Perhaps that is why they are so rude and insulting.

Perhaps, just as in the past they have been persuaded to see us as "less than". I have just seen us described as cockroaches on another forum - only a small step to rats.

Daniel Hannan, that is- he was all over the news during the Campaign- with all those who have now seriously changed their tune. No-one, but no-one - campaigned on a No Deal ticket- not even Farage, not even Boris - NONE of them.

youtu.be/0xGt3QmRSZY

Indeed Maizie, which is why I did not respond. Thanks for the info.

I suppose many of us remember the 'no-one in their right mind would even consider leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union' (where is he now, anyone knows?)

P.S Opal. I doubt if anyone else on here has heard of Dr North, let alone read any of his work. I've only just responded because I've been out all afternoon.

As for praising someone who is a founder of UKIP - is he still a member?

He isn't. I don't think he liked the direction they were taking.

Best to read his blogs, really. I just dip in and out of them.

www.eureferendum.com/archive.aspx

And as an expert, he decided to become a founder member of UKIP? So what does that tell you? That people who have expert knowledge and experience of the EU and its dealings believe that we would be better off outside it?

I don't think you read my post completely, Opal. Dr North was (and still is) a Leaver but he understood just how very complex leaving would be. He has absolutely no problem with the Single Market and the Customs Union, he wanted to remain within them; he realises that regulation is absolutely essential to the effective running of the market and has no problem with it. I gather, from what I have read of his work, that his objections were to the political aspect of the EU. He is absolutely dumbfounded by the UK's wish to commit economic suicide by removing itself from the Single Market and the Customs Union.

I see Dr North as a pragmatist. He has no illusions about leaving being just a matter of with holding money and shouting loudly at Brussels. His aim was to leave sensibly with least disruption to the UK economy and prestige.

But then, he's the sort of expert that Leavers dislike so much.

Yes binary, things are so much more binary aren't they?
A sad loss of diversity and free , independent thinking and questioning.

Oops sorry back to my leftie cave now. Surely there must be people to trample over and Marxists here somewhere?

POGS the link is in my post ...

suzied, I certainly do not see the Brexit issue in binary terms as you describe, for sure.

Opal I think you'll find that many experts on European law and the EU are committed remainers, what does that tell you? As for praising someone who is a founder of UKIP - is he still a member?

Why, when criticising the current regime do some folk think only in binary terms - Boris is marvellous, Corbyn is crap, - doesn't really address the issue. Johnson is only recruiting police to regain the numbers before the cuts made by.... the Tories. It will take several years to recruit and train extra officers- many training staff have been cut, plus they have to fill the gaps from normal retirement. It wont happen overnight, Announcing unfunded pay rises is not giving anything extra. Boris is talking the talk, but if its anything like his previous record he doesn't always walk the walk. £350m a week for the NHS anyone? Despite all the bluster it is still government by the rich, for the rich. Why we are at it EU funds for the poorer regions in the UK have been rejected - why? talk about cutting off your nose....

Thanks Urmstongran - have you noticed that none of the remainers on here have responded to my previous post? Maybe they can't explain why an EU expert is also a UKIP founder???

Jura

'No need to read- just watch - he truly makes sense.'
-

How have you watched Matthew Paris?

No need to read- just watch - he truly makes sense.

Boris wants to spend and energise. Corbyn would spend and ruin the country. I don’t trust them - remember Diane Abbott’s costing of those extra Police? Sheesh!

Parris. Damned auto correct.

Matthew Paris is a well known ardent Remainer like Phil Hammond. Too gloomy for me to want to read jura but thank you anyway.

Donald Tusk's letter to Boris Johnson :

www.consilium.europa.eu/media/40442/new-uk-pm.pdf

Ooh good point Opal I didn’t join up those dots!
??

Matthew Paris talking here about the massive new positive enthusiasm by so many- and how it came about

www.facebook.com/triggerpod/videos/388464428692144/