Tory Leadership race

Regarding the points raised re the possibility of leaving the EU with NO DEAL can I ask a question.

The EU has stated that the Withdrawal Agreement is the best there can be , it will not be renegotiated.

I understand the sort of comments that follow that more or less are saying if anybody who says they will get a renegotiated deal they are at best being too hopeful at worst lying.

My question is this .

Why is Boris Johnson assumed to be an advocator of solely wanting a No Deal , not wanting to try any renegotiations with the EU?

Theresa May gave reassurances in her ' 10 Point Offer ' over the concerns Labour had been declaring as reasons why it voted against the Withdrawal Agreement such as Environmental Protection, Workers Rights, A guarantee of a Commons vote on whether the final deal should be subject to a confirmatory referendum etc.

The EU proclamation is applicable to the UK not to any political party.

Both Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt voted ' FOR ' the Withdrawal Agreement and Labour did not so surely those who voted for the Withdrawal Agreement were more open to the UK having a deal with the EU than those such as the ERG and Labour who did not.

“Because there is no, fortunately in this country, majority for that kind of politics.”

Well, not in Dominic Grieve’s world ha! But his constituents think differently.

Tory MP Dominic Grieve said the party is “forfeiting the support” of centre-ground voters and that “even if we try to stitch a deal with the Brexit party, I’m absolutely certain that it will never deliver a majority. Because there is no, fortunately in this country, majority for that kind of politics.”

“We saw at the European Elections, we were sucked out at both ends. We were sucked out by the Brexit Party, because there was dissatisfaction from hard Brexiteers who had backed the party on promises that had been made, and we also lost and haemorrhaged votes to the Liberal Democrats.”

“The problem stems from the fact that we are peddling fantasies, we are saying that we will deliver and do things which on any rational analysis, we cannot deliver as a minority government and indeed should not be able to deliver, and yet we keep on insisting that these are deliverable.”

inews.co.uk/news/politics/tory-leadership-contest-dominic-grieve-candidates-brexit-truths/

Ha! I’m not betting Whitewavemark2 as I forgot (thankfully now!) to put a bet on Dominic Raab as being the next leader of the Conservative party!
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If and when there is a General Election I hope the current MPs from all parties have got their next jobs lined up, as an awful lot are going to be unemployed on the following morning once the results come in!!!!

Grandad1943 Fri 21-Jun-19 09:37:44

'Urmstongran, any no deal scenario still has to be placed before Parliment for final agreement. If it is not more than fifty Conservative MPs have stated that they would bring the government down in a vote on "no confidence."

That would mean a General Election without doubt'
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Hasn't that been the intention all along?

Labour were never going to vote for ' The Deal ' and even when Theresa May gave assurances over Workers Rights and Environmental Protection etc. that Labour had called for / used as reasons for not voting for ' The Deal ' they still said No.

Anyone want to bet that we will still be arguing about leaving this time next year?

Although Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt have both made lofty promises, the simple truth is that both candidates' Brexit positions are untenable.

Both Johnson and Hunt claim that they would attempt to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement to change the Irish backstop, despite the fact that the EU has repeatedly stated that negotiations cannot be reopened. Their plans are full of fantasy, but fail to provide any real solutions to the crisis facing the country.

It is shocking that they both say they would be willing to take the UK out of Europe without a deal. This decision to put party before country would damage the country for generations to come. A prime minister elected by less than 0.25% of the British public should not be allowed to take the country off of a cliff edge - there has never been a mandate for no deal.

Unless MPs are willing to use their own good judgement, admit that any kind of brexit would irrevocably damage our country and Revoke Article 50, putting the decision back to the people is the only way to solve the crisis that we're in.

Johno, if the current Parliamentary impasse brought about a General Election, how could any person (leave or remain) object to that happening.

As already, stated all the electorate would have the opportunity of electing a candidate who supports Brexit or someone who is of remain views.

In the above, a majority would emerge, and this whole debacle would be brought to an end.

They are mealy-mouthed with the only one who spoke unambiguously, Dominic Raab, swiftly ousted. Orwell's 1984 is in full action during this campaign. It is insulting to the taxpaying public. When they say... "I fully respect the referendum result"?? then go on to state how they will manipulate a remain result they are contemptuous towards the people. We are being shafted good and proper. People accept it. Apathy rules.

Urmstongran, any no deal scenario still has to be placed before Parliment for final agreement. If it is not more than fifty Conservative MPs have stated that they would bring the government down in a vote on "no confidence."

That would mean a General Election without doubt

Not quite Grandad1943 as this time No Deal wasn’t voted ‘off the table’. It stands and is the legal default position. Plus Boris has the support and counsel of Geoffrey (Rumpole) Cox.

A bit different I think this go around.

suziewoozie, you are correct that the leader used to be elected by the MPs. I tried to google when the change came about which proved quite difficult. I kept getting redirected to current leadership bid. The Conservatives appear to have changed in 1998 and Labour in 2014. I am prepared to stand corrected on these dates. There are merits in both methods I think. MPs electing means the majority will support the leader. The membership electing too means greater commitment and involvement. However, if the leader then doesn't shape up or deliver, problems emerge as in the current Parliament and with the membership. I just wish we had a better field of candidates, not that the change of Conservative leader will have anything to do with me.

I am sure that's right Grandad as he's apparently expressed this wish from a young age. Unfortunately such a divisive figure is unlikely to build bridges in our presently very polarised country with no one representing the 48% who are feeling very disenfranchised just now. It does not look good for the future.

Whitewavemark2, I believe that a General Election may be the only way this whole Brexit debacle will have any chance of being sorted out.

All the electorate would have the opportunity of electing pro Brexit or Remain, candidates, while other matters would also be up for debate.

If traditional Labour supporters in the parties Northern Heartlands still wished to vote for Leave candidates, so be it.

In the above scenario, the matter will be truly settled.

grandad of course Johnson just fancies being PM. He has no idea what he’s going to do either with Brexit or the country at large.

The hustings will show what a hollow shell he is, but he will still get in because the Tories have their eyes on the GE which is looming. And they think he will get it as a joking clown. Just shows what they think of the electorate.

Whitewavemark2 Quote [ Not quite grandad this time the architect of the whole disaster is supposedly in charge.] End Quote.

Yes, exactly Whitewavemark2. However, i am told that Johnson has now stated that the current Withdraw Agreement would be acceptable to him with as little change as the timing of the Northern Ireland Backstop being adjusted.

If correct, i believe the above demonstrates that Johnson is more interested in gaining the position of Prime Minister than he is in the future of Britain.

It's the "contacts file" that comes with the job that they are all interested in obtaining.

Not quite grandad this time the architect of the whole disaster is supposedly in charge.

Whether it be Johnson or Hunt who finishes up as Prime Minister, the same problems that beset Theresa May will still be on the desk.

MPS will not allow a "no deal" leave scenario to pass through the House of Commons, and that will leave the current Withdraw Agreement which has long been on the table to be fought over once again.

In short, new leader, same old broom.

First mistake/showing ignorance by Johnson.

He said GAT 24 would be available if we go for no deal.

Wrong

GAT 24 not available if no deal

In fact it’s twaddle or Nonsense as Carney gently put it.

Back to the drawing board (if you can find it) Bozo.

Indeed Whitewavemark2 it’s been a long time coming! Thwarted at every which way over the last 3 years and finally, finally, it seems about to happen.
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Well at least we can be satisfied that the brexiters will at last own Brexit.

Just sit back and enjoy the spectacle.

That's an old photo Anja
Trying to stir it?
Lol, it won't work.
Swallow the bitter pill.

suziewoozie Quote [ This may sound very naive but here goes - why do the membership get involved at all in choosing the leader of the Parliamentary party?] End Quote

suziewoozie, the party members become involved in the election of a leader because as members of a political party it belongs to them.

Within all political parties at one time it was the members who through the annual party conference set out and then voted through the policies of the party for the MPs to then enact. The Labour party and its broader movement in the country have now returned to the above procedure.

In my view, the above is the way all political parties should operate, and therefore if people wish to have a say in such matters as party leaders and policy-making they join a party of their choice.

You'd think he'd know to wear a belt!