Tae see oorsels as ithers see us

Well, you imagining what you think to be true could be classed as delusional, I suppose?

To answer some earlier points, from an individual point of view, yes it does matter greatly among the hill farmers of Scotland and the shellfish and soft fruit producers and the small tourist/cash based shops and the village where the only bank for 40 miles they have managed to persuade to keep open is owned by a Spanish company who might not feel as keen to do us a favour like that come April.

The Tories couldn't be trusted to tell the truth about bungs to the car industry; whether they had even bothered to do Brexit impact assessments (remember David Davis's smug admission); to hire a ferry company which actually had ships, or to ensure the harbour they chose was deep enough.

And Teresa May is trying to take out the backstop she put into her own agreement which in its 500 pages does not mention Scotland once.

So yes, it does matter and I doubt if any French farmers are envious at the moment.

Caledonian

I thought the Scottish Fishing Industry were all for ' Leave ' but feared they might be shafted if the ' Deal ' didn't protect British Waters.

Wheniwasyourage /

Perhaps the ' Spanish Friends ' of Urmstongran were Catalonian and look how the EU and the Spanish Government have treated them!

Does it matter? Well yes it does. It matters if we want people to trade, to invest, to visit, to treat us with respect in business dealings etc. etc. I have a theory that a lot of this mismanagement is to do with the class system. So many senior/professional jobs in this country go to people who are the products of the private education system therefore the talent pool they are drawing from is very tiny. The best and most able are denied equality of opportunity therefore we end up with second rate just because they went to the right schools/uni. These people will of course not be so badly hit by the fallout. These issues will never be addressed as people who have power never give it away, just look at the cuts to the education/welfare system.

Caledonail
Are you seriously suggesting that Santander keep that bank on a village high street as a favour? Hilarious ?
Did you protest as loud when your beloved eu absolutely decimated the Scottish fishing industry, probably not

I don’t think many are envious of the political chaos in the U.K. at the moment

No, I expect not, but to be honest, unless you have a eal interest in politics, I doubt if very many ordinary people are fretting about it.

I cannot imagine our struggle to get out of the EU, (caused by so many at Westminster wanting different things from the Withdrawal Agreement) is keeping the average Spaniard, Pole or Grecian awake at night. I doubt very much if many are sitting around in continental bars having deep discussions about the Leaver and Remainer perspective or the UK politicians who favour getting out of the EU.

Come on - would they - really?

Most people in the UK are rolling their eyes at our politicians, and wishing we'd just get on with it. They are fed up with the partisan games playing. I doubt if it is causing much of a reaction on the Continent. The people of EU member states have their own internal politics and grievances to deal with.

What I see is the UK is not in a unique position as to how others see us as that question can be attributed to many others .

France - weeks of demonstrations by the Gilet jeune which have caused destruction , injury and economic knocks.

Germany - no overall government and facing a possible recession.

Spain - May have to hold an early Election as the Spanish Government cannot get it's Budget Proposal through Parliament.

Spain - Crack down on Catalonia Independence and 12 Catalonia Parliamentarians in court on charges that could see them imprisoned for up to 25 years. Others in fear of returning to Spain.

Greece - We all know how that has faired . Angela Merkel went to Greece in January and I like the words of Yanis Varoufakis, ex Grecce Finance Minister when he said :-

" Mrs Merkel is in Greece to inspect the desert she made and to call it... recovery ."

Italy - Watch this space.

I could go on.

There may be problems in all these other countries but all of them have large majorities in their populations supporting their continued membership of the EU, because they appreciate the many benefits of membership of the world's largest and most successful trading bloc and the stability that it brings.

Only the British have been stupid enough to threaten to leave because in a particular week in 2016, the illegal and corrupt leave campaigners managed to convince a narrow majority of those who voted to believe their lies.

The majority of the UK population now want the UK to Remain in the EU (that has been shown in all but 2 out of 36 opinion polls over the last eighteen months). It will take some time to repair our reputation as the idiots of Europe, but let's just hope that majority can prevail.

but all of them have large majorities in their populations supporting their continued membership of the EU

Where are the facts and figures to support that statement Varian?

I think if you study satisfaction with the EU surveys, those poor eastern European countries which contribute nothing/the least but receive the most funding are the ones who happily remain.

There is dissatisfaction with the EU all over Europe and Scandinavia. Many posts before this one have listed countries (or member states as they are known) where there is inner turmoil.

Ireland has 80% support for the EU, despite the damage the UK is prepared /wishes to do to its economy. Its the far right /left extremists that want to stir up nationalistic feelings who don't like the cooperative message of the EU.

The UK has plenty of inner turmoil - its not all directed at the EU, much of it is against our own useless political system.

Day 6:There is dissatisfaction with the EU all over Europe and Scandinavia.

Of course not all EU countries are satisfied with the EU. However, can you really claim that this dissatisfaction is general all over Europe and Scandinavia?

In 2018 an opinion poll revealed:
Strong support for EU: Luxembourg, Ireland, Germany and the Netherlands: between 79 and 85 percent.

In Sweden 68% support the EU and believe the most important issues are climate and environment, human rights and fighting terrorism. I haven't found figures for Denmark and Finland but perhaps you can.

Low support: Czechia, Croatia, Italy and Greece where between 34 and 45 percent think EU is good for them.

A mixed picture then - as one might have predicted.

Pogs The British Government was the only EU government to allow fishermen to sell their quotas abroad when the Common Fisheries Policy came into effect. 80% of English fishing quotas are now held by foreigners or around five UK rich list families.

The pelagic fishermen weren't denied fair quotas by the EU and Michael Gove has therefore discovered he can't get these quotas back post Brexit because of basic international property law.

Fishermen are to be admired for doing a hard, cold, long-hours, stressful job, but their difficulties did not all stem from the CFP.

Meanwhile, the surviving small boats - particularly in Scotland - have found a more lucrative market in catch they used to throw back into the sea, like langoustine which they pride in getting from Scottish quaysides to Spanish supermarkets in 3 days.

80% of British-caught fish is sold to EU countries like France, Spain and Italy and the most delicate crustaceans have to be exported quickly because if one dies everything in the transport container dies.

Most fish sold in chip shops in England is imported from Iceland, Denmark and Norway.

I don't know anyone who thinks the terrible mess we are in is worth it because it may slightly benefit the wealthier end of just one industry...and even then not the many smaller producers and their families from Cornwall to Unst.

The UK fishing industry was badly let down by a government allowing quotas to be sold to other countries, but they were even more let down by the British representative on the EU Fishing Committee who only attended one meeting out of 42 to which he was invited. Which lazy incompetent charlaton of an MEP was that? - none other that Nigel Farage!!!!!!!

Why on earth would anyone in the fishing industry ever vote the way he instructed them to do??? - yet apparently many did. He should have been called out and shamed by the Remain campaign and if there is a People's Vote he certainly must be.

Petra Locally to me, the Clydesdale Bank (Australian - owned) has shut the nearest four rural branches, despite at least two of them being continuously busy and supported by whole communities. The nearest is now more than 30 miles away, not all of which is on a bus route. There aren't any trains.

Twenty miles away, there is a village which has fought - and succeeded - to keep at least one bank (not Santander) open, a couple of days a week. The staff of that TSB have fought very hard to persuade their bosses that we - locally - are still cash-driven because of tourism and the way the rural Scottish economy still works. Many of us cannot rely on internet banking because we do not have security of connection. The Clydesdale staff did the same, but their chiefs did not listen.

TSB is now owned by the fourth-largest Spanish bank Sabadell who are unlikely to wish to be kind to a country which seems determined not only to flounce out of the same economic union, but to pull up the drawbridge and man the ramparts.

I am sorry you find our sadness and concerns so funny. And yes, I was serious.

One of the best pieces of television analysis surrounding Brexit has not come from the BBC, ITV or Channel 4. It was not even produced for British television. It instead originally aired in America.
It was American talk show host John Oliver who took down Brexit in epic proportions, by devoting the majority of latest programme to dismantling the arguments for it.

The presenter of HBO’s Last Week Tonight - who was born in Birmingham - gave a stellar performance in explaining how Britain ended up with Brexit, how it is consuming everyone’s energy, and the consequences of what could happen next.

Oliver used examples from the House of Commons, from television interviews, and even reality television programmes like Love Island to perfectly explain the political crisis.

Beginning the feature on Brexit he explained: “It’s now been two-and-a-half years since the UK voted to leave the EU. The long story short of is there was a bus with a lie on it, people made a massively consequential decision by a narrow margin, and the subject of the impending Brexit has dominated every waking moment in British life.”

In a very meta moment, the US television show then turned to the British television show Gogglebox, which features families also watching television shows.

He used the example to explain that ”nothing is happening the way it was promised” with just 40 days to go.

“People in Britain are completely exhausted by Brexit talk, and the crazy thing is it hasn’t even happened yet. Although it has had big effects on the British economy. In the wake of the Brexit vote the UK has become one of the worst performing economies in the G7, major companies like Nissan and Dyson are moving operations out of Britain, and the pound has dropped by almost by 14%.”

Playing clips of the House of Commons - which would never be allowed in the UK due to parliamentary laws - the American host was dumbfounded by the way politicians behaved.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/hbos-john-oliver-takes-down-brexit-1-5897828

POGS you usually do go on..and on ???

Former EU ambassador Ivan Rogers warns May has ‘burnt goodwill with EU capitals’

Sir Ivan - who quit as permanent representative in Brussels in January 2017 in protest at the government’s handling of Brexit - said Theresa May has lost an “awful lot” of goodwill by supporting demands to rewrite the Withdrawal Agreement she signed last November. He told the cross-party committee the prime minister had relied on a strategy of “running down the clock and playing it as hardball as possible”, seeking to win over critics on both sides of the argument by telling them: “It’s my way or the abyss.”

European leaders have questioned the PM’s “good faith” after she urged them to sign a Withdrawal Agreement in November to allow her to get it through parliament by Christmas, only to then postpone the vote until January and then support an amendment demanding it should be reopened. “An awful lot of goodwill has been burnt through,” said Sir Ivan. “I have been on the receiving end of quite a lot of views on that, most of which are not easily printable.

“There has been a hardening of attitudes over the last few weeks, post-Brady and Malthouse, and that comes from some of our best friends in northern Europe, not just predictable capitals. “There is a definite entering of iron in the soul in parts of Europe at the moment.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/sir-ivan-rogers-on-theresa-may-brexit-and-eu-countries-goodwill-1-5900656

PECS Tue 19-Feb-19 23:17:28

POGS you usually do go on..and on ???

Nope not playing with you today.

Thank you Varian. I am perplexed by the inability of Brexiteers to see that Mrs May made a huge mistake trying to change something she fought so hard for back in November. She called a general election when there was no need, but now that we really are in a leaderless crisis, we are denied an election or a people's vote because the Tories and Labour are dithering and fighting among themselves. You couldn't make it up.

No Caledonai14 you couldn't make it up. In fact, if this dire disaster was a tv series, I would have stopped watching it, dismissing it as far fetched and unrealistic, surely no electorate would be so daft, so easily led and still willing to fall off a cliff?

Heleba Smith writes-

"Euro MPs are confirming that the mood in Brussels is anything but positive with some choice words today. The prominent Greek MEP, Stelios Koulouglou, told the Guardian: "Everyone in the [EU] negotiating team is completely fed up with May. They feel she doesn’t have a clear plan, she changes constantly and instead of being serious, is playing cheap political games."

Koutlouglou, who represents Greece’s governing leftist Syriza party, said the British prime minister’s negotiating team now had “a very, very bad reputation” at what was seen as a particularly sensitive juncture in talks. "

www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/feb/21/brexit-hammond-warns-of-no-deal-damage-as-more-tories-consider-exit-politics-live

"Leave doesn’t mean leave as Nigel Lawson plans UK return after failing to gain French residency"

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/nigel-lawson-to-quit-france-to-return-to-the-uk-1-5920438

The French don't want him. Do we?

Varian perhaps the Home Office could refuse him permission to return as he has dual nationality? On the grounds of him being a serious risk on financial grounds. Hehe. Maybe he should appeal to the hated ECJ?

Well, Urmstongran we lived in Spain at the time of the referendum and all the Spanish people we knew, without exception, thought Britain was mad to leave the EU. They simply couldn't understand it.