Warwick University- would you want any dgc of yours to go there?

There are different stories around about how the posts became public - one thing for sure is that only someone who accessed the posts could have shared them or screen shotted them so they could appear on Twitter. The ‘men’ wrote these posts to each other - who’s denying their guilt and culpability in this regardless of any conspiracy theories re ‘more to it than we know’? They are guilty - the argument is not about that but about how it’s been handled and their punishment. Is that so complicated?

Well Nonnie I have absolutely no idea what thread you are referring to. IIRC I did not start a thread about appalling behaviour on social media but a thread about the appalling behaviour of Warwick in dealing with the appalling behaviour of a group of’men’. Social media allows the message to spread more quickly but had they been writing letters to each other containing the same meassesges and they had been leaked I would have started a thread criticising the university.

Ellan I may be wrong but I thought it was a closed group but one of them showed a girl who had been mentioned, which is why we all found out. If I'm wrong I'm sure the OP will tell me. Actually she will probably tell me I'm wrong anyway!

I agree that it looks as if there may well be more to it than we know already but how do we find out? Although if it is worse than we have been told surely the police would have found something to charge them with? The media is often more interested in headlines than information as we all know.

Nonnie, I don't know if threats were made but I personally feel sure that they wouldn't have been mentioned by any investigating team even if they were.

There's a lack of transparency in this case which doesn't sit well, me knowing that certain evidence in many cases is squirrelled away, miraculously.

marye it is ironic that you start a thread about appalling behaviour on social media then cast aspersions like a playground bully

It would be bad enough for the women involved if they were to see, or even have to share seminars, with any of these men, but another question is whether other women at the university will feel safe knowing they were on campus.

I can't understand those who are saying it was "just banter" amongst young men. None of the young men I know would consider this appropriate and would quickly disassociate themselves from anyone who thought this "banter" was OK.

Ellan were threats made? I thought it was a closed group.

marye I am interested in what happened and that 'new evidence' happened. I find it is usually better to know the facts rather than what goes on social media which may or may not be true. Your comments are insulting and only based on what goes on in your mind not on anything I have said. If you have any decency you will apologise but then you didn't respond to me earlier when I asked you to prove your accusations so I won't hold my breath. Your post/s say more about you than me. Shame on you.

I did not think it was new evidence. The appeal was based on the grounds of the unequal punishment meted out. The men do not deny what they did.

Why so concerned about the new evidence Nonnie ? It doesn’t make any of their filthy posts any less filthy. I expect you hope it would exonerate the ‘men’ to some extent

I'd still like to know what the 'new evidence' was that made them change the ban. If anyone finds it in their Sunday paper please tell me.

This case of police failure to intervene comes on the back of the case against student Liam Allen who'd been treated appallingly by police when he was accused of 12 counts of rape along with sexual assault.
Not only was he on bail for over 2 years but faced the possibility of many years in prison and his name on the sex offenders list.

Police had been looking for evidence/material which clearly hadn't been there which culminated in Liam's trial collapsing.

In view of cases such as Liam's the police will now be reluctant to handle such cases where threats have been made.

Liam had been attending a university in Sussex where a young woman had accused him.

The way Warwick has dealt with this could set a precedent for other universities and establishments to do the same and sends out a message that a response of 'naughty, naughty, slapped wrist' is a perfectly acceptable response, you can now continue life and your studies as before.

As has been pointed out, this is part of a pattern and could lead to a more serious crime being committed, especially if it is not dealt with properly before it possibly escalates beyond fantasies.

Of course this kind of thought and talk isn't limited to just these young men, but the best way we can mark clearly how totally abhorrent and unacceptable this behaviour it is, is by coming down like a ton of bricks on those caught doing it.

I rather think we all know that this type of behaviour is more widespread than just Warwick. The point is this is a particular case and how it has been dealt with. If you want a wider discussion on issues around social media and its influences tbat s fine but it’s irrelevant to how Warwick has chosen to deal with this. And the idea that they can be allowed back because the victim won’t bump into them in such a big university - pathetic.

I understood what you meant without question Baggs I don't think you needed to justify it and you most certainly were not 'victim blaming'. I don't understand how anyone could interpret your post as that.

I think you have opened up a wider discussion about this sort of behaviour being common in more places than Warwick and it is down to social media. SM is a big issue and I hope a way can be found to address it. It seems to be having a massive effect on even quite young children and I'm sure there is much abuse of different sorts for them to contend with. I don't know the answer, we can't take their phones away from them.

Sadly these 11 young men are not the only ones in Britain. See the responses from other men on various comment threads. Just because it may be common behaviour does not make it ok.
However here are some who have been exposed. It is therefore more important to ensure the response to their behavior & attitudes demonstrates & reflects societies views on people who threaten rape whether threats are made privately or publicly, were fantasy or real. What can be passed off as apparent "lad banter" can develop into serious crime.

I've just popped over to look at the mumsnet discussion on this issue. One poster alleges that one of the young men involved was sexually abusive towards her when they were at high school together. Another poster has put a link to an article in which one of the young men is named and similar allegations made against him.
I stand by my earlier comment that the kind of language and threats used by these young men don't just happen, they're part of a pattern and very likely, part of fantasies.

And their messages were ‘horrid’ ?Horrid? FFS.

Oh Baggs you think these are the only ones there? Bless how sweet - these are the ones who’ve been caught. The university have not done what they could have - they could have carried out an investigation without their PR person ( male of course) being the investigation officer, tgey coud have banned them for life, they could have informed the women of the results of the disciplinary processes etc. And you’d put the responsibility for the womennot bumping into the ‘man’ on her shoulders? You have no idea of the logistics of any of that have you - your comment is predicated upon the size of the place but they might be in the same faculty for example,using the same buildings. And as for quoting JP - you know he’s a very controversial figure and not some balanced objective thinker- nothing wrong with that of course but I certainly don’t rate him along with many other feminists

I think there are probably young men like this at every university. There are over 23,000 students at Warwick. This story is about five men, about two-hundredths of one percent of the student population. I'd guess that is in the same order of magnitude as stupidly fantasising men in the whole population.

It's a horrible story but I think the university has done what it could in the circumstances. It should not be hard for the one woman who is still there to avoid those (is it more than one? I've forgotten the details of how many are coming back) that caused her absolutely understandable fear and outrage, especially as no direct threat was ever made as far as one can tell.

So, in response to the thread title, I wouldn't worry over much about any daughter or grand-daughter of mine going to Warwick University or any other university. I have a daughter who is a first year university student right now. I know she is potentially exposed to unpleasant characters and it is a worry, but it is no more of a worry at a university than it is anywhere else. It is also, to put it bluntly, Life. Much as we parents and grandparents want to protect our youngsters from every danger, we can't. We can only hope that the education we have given them about coping with what life might throw in their path serves them well.

Jordan Peterson is right to advise everyone to try to make friends with those who want the best for you. He is talking partly about himself and his own experience with teenage friends who, he found, did not have his best interests in mind (nor their own, as it happens).

My father came to collect me after my first term at university. He didn't need to; I hadn't expected or asked him to, but he wanted to get a sense of who and what I was 'into'. He met my two best new friends (who are still friends forty-five years on) and was reassured. He said: "It says something about you that you have friends like that". He knew what he was talking about as he had to teach all the students at the college where he was head of teacher training. He'd met all types and knew what he was talking sbout.

As does Peterson, for what it's worth, from his lectureship at Toronto Uni and from his experience as a clinical psychologist.

It was these things, among others, that I had in mind when I said up thread that it worried me that a tinge of undesirability had not apparently been detectable in the young men at Warwick who wrote those horrid messages to each other. I reiterate that I was not and am not blaming the women who felt threatened when they knew about the messages; I am saying exactly and as simply as possible that it worries me that undesirability is sometimes hard to detect. Posts on this thread show that pretty much everyone else feels the same, otherwise why would we be shocked?

Actually I think we should encourage as many young people as possible to apply to Warwick just so they can turn their place down when it’s offered to them. University’s are cash cows nowadays and they desperately need. “Bums on seats” which they won’t get if everyone declines their places.
I too have signed the petition

Sex offenders fantasise about what they'd like to do, those fantasies build until they're acted on. No one ever went out and raped someone without having previously fantasised about the act.

There is a real danger in this situation and that is escalation. It may have started out as an obscene fantasy, but the next step – and I do know of a parallel instance – is one of the idiots falsely claiming to have carried out the threat. (As it is well known that many rapes are never reported to the police, the idiot is fairly secure in his lie.) The next step is that one or some of the other idiots will see this as a justifiable reason for actually committing rape and do so. Mob mentality is always illogical.

Readymeals The limit on free speech has always been that it should not advocate hate or violence against any group of people. Anyone advocating rape, even in a debating chamber, is advocating violence against a group of people so this would always be unacceptable in a debating chamber or any other forum. It would apply if someone as advocating violence against racial or religious groups or even against people who dropped litter.

Saying that a woman didn't notice that her partner was a psychopath until it was too late, as well as not being what I said, is not the same thing as criticising a woman for not noticing. The not noticing can be a fact without the mentioning of it being a criticism of the person who didn't notice. Especially if psychopaths are experts at deviousness.

If you think that "looks like" criticism, then that's what you think. As I have explained, it's not what I meant, nor is it what I said.