German wreath at the cenotaph

I do find it wrong that there is a ban on representatives from Rhodesians/Zimbabwe laying a wreath at the Cenotaph.
I suppose the ban is on Mugabe and his family.
That is very sad, I didn't realise; could they not find someone else to represent Southern Rhodesians (as they were then)/Zimbabweians?

The ban could be lifted now, surely?

What happened in the war has nothing to do with any German under 96 living today, and most of the population have to live with the shame of it. Even those who fought in the war had little choice - it was not a voluntary call up and their lives were at risk if they as much as whispered anything against the Nazis. So this gesture was long overdue. I think Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron are perfect examples of what our attitude should be today.

I’m glad they laid a wreath for the German soldiers.
They weren’t evil; they fought in the mud and the blood because they were made to, just like our boys.
It wasn’t their war, it was the war of Princes and statesmen who were safe and comfortable, far from the conflict.
Tommy and Fritz were united in their suffering and loss, and may they all sleep peacefully

The Christmas truce 1914:
bam.files.bbci.co.uk/bam/live/content/z3r8wmn/transcript

www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zxsfyrd

I have met several Germans who were deeply upset by their history. We are not responsible for the actions of our forefathers - which is why people like Tony Blair make me angry apologising for slavery. Anything that we can do today to promote peace and unity we must do - we must stand together, acknowledge and salute the fallen, who had no choice, and never allow this to happen again

I actually thought it was a good gesture. There were huge losses on both sides. And I'm sure many Germans regret the war. Many of our generation of Germans also will have lost family. We have seen old German and British pilots meeting up and shaking hands. We can't change the past but we can move on and accept an act of compassion.

I totally agree about Zimbabwe. A lot of then Rhodesians lost their lives, and although they've been kicked out of the Commonwealth, surely someone somewhere could lay even a small token to recognise their sacrifice.
My stepfather, who was a lovely man, was a POW with the Japanese, captured at the fall of Singapore, imprisoned in Changi Gaol before being marched to work on the Burma railway, then onto another camp till the end of the war in the Far East. I'm afraid that he hated the Japanese for the rest of his life although latterly he did mellow- a bit!!! I can remember when I was a child hearing him shouting and calling out in the night, and my mother soothing and comforting him as best she could. He also suffered from recurring bouts of Maleria, and other malnutrition issues. Food was always eaten carefully and finished down to the last grain of rice,nothing was wasted.
My mother, despite being widowed,took a totally different attitude to Germans,welcoming a German girl into our home for two months in 1957, and returning with me to visit her and her parents in Stutgart in 1961. They too had had a horrible time in WW2,. Reconciliation IS the only way forward.

What's your problem? We are at peace.

No I am sorry but I do not agree. As an ex service man with my own medals and people to remember I am all for reconciliation and I thought that the evening at Westminster Abbey where the German President and Prince Charles both read bits one in German and the second in English about love from (I think) St. John really completed the day for me. I actually didn’t see The wreath laying, being at my own local commemoration, but to me this is a time for letting the past slide into history with all the unpleasantness between Britain and Germany, or perhaps more accurately between the Commonwealth and the former Prussian Empire, fall away.

Opal
If you want to keep the rift going, yours is the way to go about it.

The First World War was (bizarrely) kicked off by the assassination of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife. Because of the claustrophobic inter-related nature of the Royal houses of Europe this started a chain of events that was either unstoppable or no royals or politicians had the guts to make the effort to stop.

No-one wanted to lose face.

And that's the reason so many ordinary troops on BOTH sides spent four years fruitlessly killing each other. Neither side learnt - in 1939 we started to do it all over again.

Of course the Germans should have been represented at the Cenotaph. I just wish that reconciliation would be permanent......

I thought it was a very moving gesture of reconciliation and completely right at this time of political chaos and confusion. Safer and stronger together.

Must admit I've found some overtly Nationalistic tones in certain areas of the recent Armistice commemoration troubling. At a recent event at a social club we attended that was themed as an Armistice event we did all raise a glass for a loyal toast and then were asked to sing the National Anthem, this was followed by a solemn minutes silence and a very short speech about remembering all those who have given their lives for this country. This I felt was the right balance - what I am so glad I missed (by leaving early) was a five minutes session at the end of flag waiving and the singing of 'Rule Britannia'. So many young lives were lost 100 years ago....Nations have changed, Empires have fallen, the world then was very different to the world now. What we should remember was the death of a generation, the futility of it all and that any loss of life in war is a tragedy. I am very unhappy with anything that perpetuates the differences between peoples and that somehow any Nation is better or more worthy than another.

In 2014 DBF and I attended services at both Tyne Cot and the huge German cemetery here.
The Tyne Cot one included the German and Italian Ambassadors and the German one the British Ambassador.
There were also representatives of other countries, at Tyne Cot, New Zealand, Australia and South Africa(we were the ambassadors guests) were there.
I have many German friends and the ones I know are all ashamed of their countries history.

Where we live in France, because of the proximity to Switzerland with its attraction of enormous salaries, it is fair to say we have an international community hereabouts. One of our closest friends is German, born during WWII and other very close friends are Jewish, whose daughter is a Rabbi. Everyone here is amenable to forgiving [if not forgetting] which we personally feel is the only way forwards. But then these days we have other factors to worry about.

,but i feel that the dignitaries that attend the cenotaph should not be there at all. they display medals even though they have never been in a war..it should be for our and gb british/welsh/irish/scottish troops/and the former empire countries. i can see where you are coming from ...did the german chancellor lays poppies for gb troops in germany. ?it comes around to a united europe... ...but the first words that the german chancellor said on brexit "i thought we had got them"!? ..me being old fashioned think we should keep the cenotaph british... but everybody fought in the wars whether british or german. my 2 times great grandfather died in the war in 1918.luckily he had his children while serving in india or i would not be sitting here writing this. he is buried in rue petillion cemtery fleubaix france opposite a german young man...one bit of me says we remember all young men/and old ones like my gt gt gf aged nearly 41. they all had mothers/wives/family they all grieved.but cenotaph should be for us in britain.

but then again ,we all want peace in the world and yes i think we should accept a hand of remembrance from germany. we didnt ask for WW1 or WW2 ,we were defending our country.....and in this modern world maybe we should for the hand of peace..remembered but not forgotten......

Neither side learnt - in 1939 we started to do it all over again.

We had a pact with Russia and France - the Triple Entente - because the Kaiser was intent on expanding his Empire and dominating Europe.
It was actually the invasion of Belgium by Germany that prompted the British to declare war in 1914; we had promised to defend Belgium many years and felt we had to uphold those liberal values - the right of small nations to independence and the rule of law.

Of course, appeasement was attempted before WW2, but again we had pledged support to Poland and after that country was invaded by the Nazis, it was inevitable. Fighting Hitler's fascists was justified.

many years previously
sorry, typo

I have many German friends and the ones I know are all ashamed of their countries history.
As another poster has said, there were many marriages between British servicemen and German women post-war and, as far as I am aware, the German families welcomed their British sons-in-law. Many Germans themselves saw the Allied troops as liberators from the Nazis.

Hello Opal and thank you for posing the question.

Did you know that the Cenotaph was originally meant as a symbol of peace? The initial (temporary) structure was erected for a Peace Parade following the end of the First World War and I am very glad that this year has marked a new chapter of reconciliation after conflict and renewed hope for a peaceful future.

On a personal note two of my brothers, my first husband and two sons-in-law were/are in the military. The Falkland, Irish, Iraq and Afghan conflicts have massively affected my life and the lives of my family. If we don't pursue peace and forgiveness then we shall be caught up in a senseless merry-go-round of continuing hostilities.

moggie57
The Cenotaph was most definitely NOT erected for just the British troops who died in WWI. Did you know that in addition to our European Allies almost three million soldiers from Australia, Africa, Canada, New Zealand, the Caribbean and the countries we now know as India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Burma answered Britain’s call to arms between 1914 and 1918? Because of this it was decided not to dedicate the Cenotaph, as not all the dead it commemorates were Christian.

Just to add to grannyactivist's post, there has been much mention of the soldiers of WW1 this centenary year - but of course so many sailors lost their lives too and, of course, the Royal Flying Corps lost airmen too.

Considering we were celebrating the end of the Great War, there cannot be many people alive today who experienced the cessation of hostilities in 1918. Those few like the 112 year old lady I read about on the BBC homepage on the 11th must all have been children. Certainly none of my family who served then are still alive.

I think it is high time we respect the soldiers who died or were invalided, irrespective of which side they fought on. After all many of them had no choice, as plenty of soldiers were either too young to vote for the politicians then in power, or not entitled to, as they were not householders.

Would OP have preferred Mrs Merkel, the German Chancellor to have refused the invitation to Paris?

Did anyone see Sunday evening BBC 2 documentary They Shall Not Grow Old ? I wept through out for both sides in this war. So many were so young and it was typical of the humanity we in this country show even to those we fight against to see such compassion given to the wounded enemy.