After another lot of resignations concerning Brexit, I have given up. Teresa May would not have been my choice, but did try without support, plus health problems to do the will of the majority, to further democracy, however the constant hectoring from remainers refusing to let things progress because they didnt get their own way has resulted in what they wanted chaos, who cares if the country is bought down as long as they browbeat us into another referendum. I wish she would resign now, This country is finished and on its knees. Democracy, sadly is getting eroded in this country. I can see Corbyn, of the privileged upbringing, bleating on about rights of the poor, who meets and is friendly with tyrants and those that are actively against the UK, being pm, maybe a red flag instead of the Union Jack, he will have his period of borrowing up to the hilt, getting us in deeper trouble and the whole cycle will begin again. People don't want anyone running this country who cares about it if they are decent. Corbyn would like us like Russia. He has no respect for those that fought and died so we can be free. I think he dislikes this country? It doesn't matter for me personally, but I feel so much for our youngsters who will never know how it should be, they are the future and they have been let down. I have given up.
It is not impossible to leave the EU if you don't mind causing irrepairable damage to our economy and our standing in the world.
This is because we have enjoyed many benefits as part of the world's greatest international trading group of countries, who also happen to be our nearest neighbours. If were were to leave we would lose all of these benefits.
That has been clear from the start.
Yes Lemon, I agree, let Labour take it over! Perhaps they have a cunning plan that will please everyone! ( we've yet to hear it of course!!) A dose of JC would concentrate the mind both here and in Europe, where we're hated anyway (long before brexit) so that can't get any worse!! and perhaps, who knows a Phoenix might rise from these undoubted ashes. Not holding my breath!!
crystal the country was offered a referendum, and the majority vote was to leave.Both main political parties then agreed to trigger article 50 to honour the result if the referendum and leave the EU.
The EU is making leaving nigh on impossible, rather like the Mafia, something you can never leave ( except in a coffin.)
Even though T May has come up with something that would please business, remainers and a lot of leavers, by providing a so called soft Brexit, even if Parliament approves it, the EU most certainly will not.
Simply leaving without a deal ( always a possible alternative)
Cannot now work because Parliament will certainly not agree to it.
It’s a rock and a hard place, and I think May should say ‘right, I’ve had enough of you all’ and walk away.
After promising to honour the results of the referendum, both Parties are now in deadlock.Between the intransigence of the EU and all the back stabbing in Parliament, it gets harder and harder to deliver.
Both the EU and Parliament could accept what is in the white paper, but my guess is that both won’t.
Perhaps the UK needs a dose of a Corbyn government to give it a short sharp shock!?
Ally, it was unprescedented. It tells a lot about a Government who would provide hard copies of the White Paper for the Press at 9 am in the morning- and NONE for the Opposition who were supposed to discuss it and ask questions about it in the afternoon in the Commons. A disgrace.
Yes, 'for a while' - not too different to '5 minutes'
You made it sound like a riot. Actually it was five minutes.
If you understood the procedures of our Parlimentary system, Ally you would understand that it did constitute a 'riot'.
Has anyone noticed that brexit terminology has changed, pushing the conception of "no deal" as a possible outcome.?
When, after the referendum, the term "brexit" started to be commonplace, a "soft brexit" meant staying in the Single Market and the Customs Union and "hard brexit" meant leaving them. A "no deal" we were told would never happen.
No suddenly May's propsal, which involves leaving both the Single Market and Customs Union, is being described as "the softest of soft brexits". It is nothing of the sort.
May’s White Paper is delusional twaddle designed as ever to give the impression of a flexible Britain versus and hateful intransigent EU.
The only realistic phrase in the entire tripe being:
“As a (soon to be) non-member, the UK cannot expect the EU to change its fundamental order to suit us.”
But even this is negated by the immediately following insistence that the EU must do just that.
It is very far from the minimum position the EU will accept. The negotiations on it haven't started yet, and any more concessions from May will make it fail in the UK. So how can this be a success? Sounds to me that by just coming up with something - even if it is a a half-baked UK political compromise that will never work - they can blame the EU again when it leads to nothing.
Brexit is a monumental blunder of our own making for which we have no right to blame others.
Jura found it. You made it sound like a riot. Actually it was five minutes.
"Commons suspended as Brexit paper arrives
Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab was updating the Commons on the government's new EU White Paper - but unhappy MPs said they had not yet seen it.
As copies were delivered to them, Speaker John Bercow suspended proceedings for five minutes, saying it was "most regrettable".
Mr Raab later apologised and said he would look into what went wrong."
I always feel I have to check your reports Jura.
"jura2 Thu 12-Jul-18 15:08:27
House of Commons has to be dismissed for a while as it descends in chaos- as the White Paper was not given to MPs prior the session - disgracefully."
Where is this report Jura? I just can't find it.
I voted remain and would do so again. The EU is not perfect, any more than our Westminster political system is but isolationism and protectionism in todays uncertain world is not the answer.
The hard Brexiteers like Davis and Johnson should not be in power anyway so I am glad to see them both go. All the other hard right wingers can join them. Cameron knew this was an impossible juggling act, giving a referendum was a mistake in the first place but he was backed into it by his party and the staunch right wing conservatives. May is in a difficult position and I think we are going to end up in a worse position when we come out next March. We may have limited migration from the EU as who wants to come here now anyway. Our NHS is struggling to recruit and you only need to go into a local hospital to see how strained the system is.
Certainly our economy will suffer in the short term while they sort out how we will trade with other countries and small companies may struggle to cope with the many changes they will have to make. Unravelling years of joint legislation and collaboration is going to take time and make some lawyers very rich. Even if they can do a blanket repeal of all the laws which encompass both the UK and the EU there will need to be replacements which will have ongoing ramifications to businesses here. Higher education research is already being affected by European collaborative projects shelving the UK. Controlling our own borders without cooperation from our EU neighbours may mean that illegal migration will increase rather than decrease. I am also not convinced we will be any more secure after Brexit than we are at present.
The leave voters may or may not get what they want but I think we will get the very worst option of all. The cost of leaving will be high either by loss of jobs and trade and we will have none of the advantages of collaboration. I also wish people would say the majority voted to leave. The remain vote was very close to the leave and a vast section of the population did not vote at all indicating they don't care or did not like either option.
Effectively though I gave up on Brexit the day after the referendum and never thought it would be successful. Nothing to do with being unpatriotic just pragmatic and realistic.
House of Commons has to be dismissed for a while as it descends in chaos- as the White Paper was not given to MPs prior the session - disgracefully.
sorry, first link did not work- the second is actually better.
The hypocrisy and dishonesty of the man is beyond contempt. But we do remember, very clearly
Do they really think we are stupid and have no memory. Sure you all remember Farage saying again and again, during the Campaign 'why can't we be like Norway or Switzerland' -
and now that a similar deal is being proposed, he is 'this is not what the people voted for' and 'traitors'. 
Shared from a friend:
'Dominic Grieve: "If by the end of February or early March it is clear that there is no deal on anything, there will be a declaration of a state of emergency in this country.... Actually, ordinary life will grind to a halt".
Grieve is a 61 year old, Oxford educated barrister and Conservative MP of 21 years standing. In his time he has been shadow Home Secretary, Shadow Secretary of State for Justice and Attorney General. He is the current chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee.
This is not a man of inexperience or slight intellect and he is not prone to sensationalism. He understands a great deal of how the country functions. He foresees a national state of emergency in eight months' time.'
More than 50% of British food is imported , about 30% from the EU. Many firms replenish their stocks 'just in time' so could delays at our borders after Brexit lead to food shortages? Will the government have to create a 21st century Minister of Food, like Lord Woolton?
Totally thanks.
Abot having to follow EU rules for export, we are talking about quality and standards (as opposed to Chinese and Korean goods) - to keep us safe, and our children- for electric goods, flammable materials, components in toys, bikes, etc. To keep us safe, our workers safe, with high standards of manufacture, materials, etc. Talking about welfare for animals, safe feeds, low levels of pollution, chemicals and drugs like antibiotics and steroids, etc. Proper care during transportation and in slaughter houses, etc.
Talking about safe medicines... the list is endless.
Why would anyone not want to see those standards upheld?
But at the end of the day, the buyer will dictate- yes our EU ex partners to be - who will just refuse to import meat, food, fruit and veg, and other goods - unless we follow same stringent standards. The customer is always right, and makes the rules. End of.
It should be remembered that it was Margret Thatcher who more than any other leader set the European Union on a framework of tight legislation covering all nations in the bloc.
Many like myself may well remember the complaints of Thatcher against the then Common Market stating that it was not "a level playing field" in regard to trade between member states. The Common Market then adopted much British legislation such as animal welfare regulations, The Health & Safety at Work Act and much more, setting it on the road to becoming the European Union.
We now have a situation were the Brexitiers (many in the Tory party) are complaining that the now European Union is over-regulated and we should "take back control". They do not seemingly understand why those regulations have come about, and why we will still have to abide by those acts even after the UK leaves Europe if we wish to continue trading freely with them.
JennaJim - my view too.
All the excuses and lies we heard from the Leave campaign are still floating around in people consciences. There was a massive an targeted attack on certain people who were ready to believe anything, lies about the EU, lies about immigration, hatred towards anyone who is "different". That is how the Kremlin attacks democracy in many countries, it spreads lies via the newspapers, via ads on FB (yes our we have Kremlin pain journos or Murdoch paid )
I've seen Leave supporters still using these lies to explain why they voted Leave, are adamant they made up their own minds. Continuing to believe in these lies when they can clearly see the country is heading towards catastrophe on their vote takes a very special sort of stupidity.
We had the best of everything under the EU but it was 28 countries and has to constantly evolve. Some countries are slower that others, need more help, others doing better but everyone in Britain was benefiting fro better standards of living and freedom of movement. Brexit is taking all that away.
Why? Because we voted greedy MEPs like Farage who is in it for himself, voters are "little people" who are too stupid to see the reality being his plans. For himself and his Russian pals. Instead of contributing intelligently in the EU he is there to "disrupt and cause mayhem" as the Kremlin commands. He has the correct psychopathic charisma that people fall for, it worked, our media enjoyed his entertainment qualities. Something the BBC will live to regret as so many still believe the lies.
The Tory party nearly split up over the EU in the late 1980s. Instead they herded together when they saw he Labour party was splitting up, the left led by Tony Benn trying the same game but from the other side. Labour were out of power a long time but we had Margaret Thatcher.
A ref on the EU should never have happened, the criminal fraternity in the far right were always going to find a way of ensuring they'd win. And they did, through illegal means. We need a future for our grand children and it is grim if this Far Right get their way. It will be Greece all over again, the rich in their yachts and many villas not paying tax while everyone else (including middle class) starve.
Well I m a remainder I didn’t want to join with Europe all those many years ago I wanted us to keep out independence to value the commonwealth etc etc but things have changed I wasn’t in the majority and we went into Europe and once you go in you need to be a fully paid up member and I saw the advantages I saw how we would have peace through numbers and I liked the idea of being part of a bigger group that could look out for each other I like pd a lot of the laws that were brought in and recognised some as silly but not too big a problem I ve never liked metric but I rub along with it and I could see the advantages, first hand and we did well we were always a poor team player asking for this concession then that but we were tolerated and it was all pretty civilised until Cameron and the Tories changed all that and divided the country almost in half on lies and misinformation and a referendum that was never meant to be binding and then one by one they slunk off into the woodwork and left the country to die on its feet
Oh Gabrielle you should worry what inheritance you are leaving your grandchildren our country is dying on its feet not only through politics but the way we have treated the earth, the world
I feel incredible saddened by all that we have done
Surely in this time of unrest across the world,,, 'in it all together' seems a good turn of phase. The EU are our allies, other countries seen to dislike us with a vengeance (US).
Cameron should be held to account for what he has done,,, the pure facts should have been available to all in this country... The ones who voted OUT will not be around to see the consequences,,,, but OUR YOUNG will.
It could actually be a lot worse than that ... as influence and finance from Russia is becoming clear- the question is WHY?
See the other thread for the very possible answer - if THAT does not scare you and make you re-think beyond spam, cheap flights and blue passports - nothing will.
I don't think anyone actually knew what they were voting for - hard facts were very thin on the ground for both sides of the argument. I tend to ignore propaganda anyway - and that's all that was produced at the time. So ironic that places like Wales voted leave - do they not understand about the hugely generous funding they presently get from the EU? A disaster is unfolding, in my opinion, and there will be absolute chaos. I worry about the impact on jobs, particularly. Also you know when the government are beginning to stockpile food supplies, they are anticipating difficulties at the ports. Cameron and the Conservatives have a lot to answer for. I feel very sorry for people who voted leave who now have changed their minds. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!!!
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