Unintended consequences of brexit

in the crazy global world we live in today, we need all around us to work together on security, terrorism, pollution, production chains, medical research, and so much more. Those who cannot understand that belong to a divided past. I did nor mock Vera, but the mindset, from a world which has long gone... and where our future just can’t be. Same for Switzerland too.

wow Lemon...showing true stereotypical colours now ?

I don’t really understand your reasoning there lemongrove. If we stay in the EU we are more likely to keep the whole of Europe peaceful than if we are outside it. Being outside the EU could make us more vulnerable.

Then you were very wrong Jura because many Leavers are excited by the thought of new opportunities opening up for the UK, which is far from living in the past.

Please Gransnet close this thread down!

Its run its course and descended into sniping at others and some writers are unbelievably bad mannered and nasty.
Discussing whose father fought more in WW2 which ended
72 years ago.

Peace in Europe doesn’t rest with us being in the EU, it doesn’t hang on it at all.
EU officials showed Cameron how much they valued us (not!) so they can’t be surprised we are leaving, though they will miss our billions, it’s true.
If anyone doesn’t think that Germany is the controller of the EU then they must have missed something.

Margaret I know you are British and live in Germany, but that is no reason to ask for a thread to be ‘closed down’.
Jura needs to know that some posters don’t appreciate swipes at them.

The xenophobia on here is scary.

Margaret I agree.

Lemongrove, the world has changed, become smaller and global, and we are surrounded by wars we have triggered, mostly for petrol. Nuclear proliferation is a massive risk for the whole world, and deterrence is coming to an end. Without a strong Europe working together, both for security and trade ...we will become puppets of the USA and RUSSIA. Your dislike of the current Germans, our strongest allies, says it all about your mindset being stuck in the past.
I grieve for the open, forward thinking, tolerant Britain I so love. We can’t afford now to look after our schools, NHS, social services, transport, etc.... how can we possibly afford a strong effective army on our own? Our veterans live in squalor, many on the streets.

mostlyhl...and so representative of Leave...as it has been shown that immigration was a huge factor. If someone who has been British since 1972 gets treated thus... can you imagine how they treat others,

Oh what rubbish Jura
I don’t dislike current Germans as you put it, and in fact think it’s probably a good thing that they are so involved with the EU, but we don’t have to be!
We are a small country that has big ideas that needs to engage with the whole world and not be restricted within the EU.
Of course we can and do look after our schools, NHS and so on, you advocate an EU army I suppose, telling us what wars to engage in?
Leaving the EU now will be the best thing that our country can do, and opens up more possiblities for the future.
Remainers who simply will not tolerate the result of the referendum being implemented will go to any verbal lengths to try and discredit Leavers, it’s quite sickening.

as it has been shown that immigration was a huge factor
It's an even bigger factor all over Europe
Immigration has been proved to be an even bigger problem than Brexit, according to where it came on the agenda at the last summit.

Yes the irrational vindictiveness is unbelievable Jura.

Remainers who simply will not tolerate the result of the referendum being implemented will go to any verbal lengths to try and discredit Leavers, it’s quite sickening.

They really don't have to go to any lengths at all, lemon. Leavers discredit themselves. This is not the first time on the Brexit threads that you have 'othered' Jura. You even told her that she couldn't possibly understand what being 'British' was really like because she wasn't born and brought up here. It was a shocking exhibition of a smug and unjustified superiority complex.

the last few terrible wars were dictated to us by the USA..lest we forget, and have got the world in the terrible and dangerous situation we are now, lest we forget.

And no Lemongrove, we don’t need to do that ... you are indeed doing a grand job all by yourself, with your alli/y.

I was 19 when I came to UK, and have been British for 46 years... my whole adult life has been in several UK locations Maizie... so can you imagine how they treat others?

MaizieD I can’t be bothered with your silly posts as you are always out to stir.
Jura you will have to get your head around the fact that we are leaving the EU soon.
Two years ago, after the referendum, you came onto here to complain about the result........because it meant you lost money ( so you said.)Well, we all had to vote the way we thought was best, for our country, although nobody could have predicted the bile that would come spilling out (for years!) against those who chose to leave.
I only hope that next year, when we actually leave, this will end in acceptance.

Well said Lemon. Well said. Lots of not very nice memories have come from Jura's flippant comment about Vera, and subsequent post's. No one expected to have such deep personal memories brought up after all these years when they got up this morning. Time to reflect and recover. for all who have been affected by today's posts at an emotional personal level.

Maizie d

Re your response to my post of Mon 02-Jul-18 10:44:24 where I said in response to a poster who raised once again the subject of UK/EU laws:-

" I keep hearing the argument you put forward such as 'We have always had the power to make ourlaws' and for 2 years I have asked in that case what are:-

EU Regulations
EU Directives
Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxembourg
Charter of Fundamental Rights
European Commmuniuties Act 1972
Primary Law
Secondary Law
Supplementary Law
-
I will give just a few of the reasons why I mentioned the above by reciprocating your words posted to me in your response by saying ' for a greater part of your list, Maizie d I could possibly refer you to this '

EU Regulations - ' Regulations are legal acts that apply automatically and uniformly to all EU countries as soon as they enter into force, without needing to be transposed into national law. They are binding in their entirety on all EU countries.'

EU Directives - Directives require EU countries to achieve a certain result, but leave them free to choose how to do so. EU countries must adopt measures to incorporate them into national law (transpose) in order to achieve the objectives set by the directive. National authorities must communicate these measures to the European Commission.

Transposition into national law must take place by the deadline set when the directive is adopted (generally within 2 years). When a country does not transpose a directive, the Commission may initiate infringement proceedings.

European Communities Act 1972- The 1972 Act gives legal authority for EU law to have effect as national law in the UK. There are two ways in which it does this:

It ensures that some types of EU legislation – including treaty obligations and regulations – have direct effect in the UK’s legal system without the UK Parliament having to pass any further legislation. For example, safety standards on imported goods have been agreed at EU level and apply in every member country.
It means that some types of EU legislation – including directives and decisions – can be made to apply in the UK either by primary legislation (Act of Parliament) or – much more commonly – by secondary legislation. An example here is the Working Time Directive which was implemented in the UK via the Working Time Regulations.

' THE 1972 ACT ALSO GIVES EU LAW SUPREMACY OVER UK NATION LAW .' Where the interpretation of EU law is in doubt, the 1972 Act requires UK courts to refer judgment to the European Court of Justice. All primary legislation enacted by the UK Parliament after the 1972 Act came into force on 1 January 1973 has effect subject to the requirements of EU law. This means that the courts are ' obliged to strike down ' legislation which is inconsistent with EU law.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/1972-european-communities-act
ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/types-eu-law_en#types-of-eu-legal-acts

POGS

Before we go any further with this could I ask you how you think EU law is made? From inception to completion; who has the 'idea' for a law, who is consulted on it, who drafts it and what is the process for getting it onto whatever the EU equivalent of the 'Statute book' is. Especially in regard to the involvement of the member states.

There seems to be a belief that the EU is a completely detached 'being' which is completely unconnected with the member states. If that is your belief then there is little point in this discussion.

POGS Thank you for this post, it is so informative,revealing and horrifying. We live under an illusion of freedom.

Can you tell me what laws (if any) are made by Act of Parliament, that are not under the scrutiny of the EU, so cannot be 'struck down' or simply brought in using the one of the controlling systems, on the list you posted:
EU Regulations
EU Directives
Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxembourg
Charter of Fundamental Rights
European Commmuniuties Act 1972
Primary Law
Secondary Law
Supplementary Law.

Is there anything we have complete control of as a Parliamentary democracy?

Maizie d

Too long to respond to and I would think pretty obvious, I would think my reply would rely on the facts of the matter.

My point regarding UK/EU laws is made to play devils advocate with the repeated insistence by some posters from time to time over the past couple of years that the UK is already sovereign and makes all our own laws, that is not the case.

To be honest from the day Ted Heath signed the
European Commmuniuties Act 1972 and other Prime Ministers have subsequently signed latter treaty's the UK has just resigned itself to that fact.

You believe / choose to believe , interpret how you will .

My view of what you have posted POGS is that EU law has been insidiously embedded in our Parliamentary system since the 1972 Act.

The illusion of involvement in EU law making is another issue I would suggest. The point you have made and the information given proves, that our freedom and Parliamentary process of law enactment is and has been since 1972 until now, a facade. We have been under the control of the EU.

Executive Branches of the EU are unelected.
"The President of the European Commission is one of the most powerful officeholders in the EU, controlling the European Commission (executive arm of the EU) which collectively has a monopoly on initiating all EU legislation and is responsible for ensuring its enforcement".
Executive Branches | EU-US Relations | European Parliament Liaison ...
www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedstates/en/eu-us-relations/executive-branches

The Council of ministers one from each 27 member states receive and can amend executive decisions and laws. The voting system mean that veto can be applied.

"The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, once it get's to it, or propose amendments. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament'sopinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it.1 Feb 2015"
Legislative powers - European Parliament - Europa EU
www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/20150201PVL00004

Under the provision of EU Treaty the unelected Commission has the "sole right to propose EU legislation, which if when passed then becomes law in EEA country's". This can only happen if member states have given permission for this to happen, under treaties, or in the case of the UK the 1972 Act of Parliament "The European Communities Act and other Prime Ministers have subsequently signed latter treaty's" (POGS). I refer you to POGS Mon 02-Jul-18 23:27:22 post, this explains the UK position within the EU clearly.
This action has embedded EU legislation into the UK Parliamentary system. This will apply across the EEA within each country's own system of Government and through treaties, which as with the single market, customs union and free movement one cannot have one without the other. Various types of controls and embedding of regulations exist in all treaties and agreements, ensuring entire compliance. As we have discussed it also apply's to EFTA country's.
Whilst the UK has successfully rejected the single currency, and Margaret Thatcher negotiated a significant rebate on the UK payments that still apply. Prime Ministers since then have been less successful in ensuring good deals with the EU. Hence the Cameron Brexit.

When all this marvellous deregulation occurs who will benefit? Rich Brexiteers like Rees- Smugg, Farage et al who will be able to make vast fortunes in offshore assets, basically online gambling. All those spouting on about the marvellous new opportunities that will magically emerge can’t tell you what these are are. They don’t realise how isolated and how few friends the U.K. actually has. Our esteemed government can’t tell us what the marvellous new opportunities are as they haven’t a clue and are completely divided. It Its like speaking to a toddler
“I want Brexit!!”
“Ok darling, let’s find it, what does it look like?”
“I want Brexit!,” ( wails)
Meanwhile Gove and chums start throwing their toys around.