Regret it Brexit?

Tony Benn MP 1973 "When the British people speak everyone, including members of Parliament, should tremble before their decision and that's certainly the spirit with which I accept the result of the referendum."

Acceptance of the majority vote is the basis of our electoral system. Tony Benn, whilst not being in agreement with the decision, honoured the majority vote as did others who campaigned against joining the “Common Market” in the 1973 referendum campaign.

Remaining opposed and retaining ones view as Tony Benn did throughout his career, that the UK should have stayed outside of the EU is vastly different than trying to overthrow, overturn and generally impede a majority vote decision and in that process endanger our electoral democracy.

“In this response to a student’s question at the Oxford Union, the late Tony Benn makes a calm but passionate argument for Brexit which anybody of any political leaning should be able to embrace:
“When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very obvious that what they had in mind was not democratic. I mean, in Britain you vote for the government and therefore the government has to listen to you, and if you don’t like it you can change it. But in Europe all the key positions are appointed, not elected – the Commission, for example. All appointed, not one of them elected.
[..] And my view about the European Union has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners, but that I am in favour of democracy. And I think out of this story we have to find an answer, because I certainly don’t want to live in hostility to the European Union but I think they are building an empire there and they want us to be a part of that empire, and I don’t want that.

“Tony Benn understood that some things are more important than whether Britain might happen to move in a slightly more left or right wing direction as a short and medium term consequence of Brexit. He understood that self-determination and democracy – particularly the ability for the citizenry to remove people from office – is the first and most important consideration in determining the democratic health of a country.
And Benn understood that living in a democracy where his own side would sometimes win and sometimes lose was far preferable to living in a dictatorship where his own preferred policies were implemented through coercion with no public redress.”

semipartisansam.com/2016/03/03/tony-benn-and-the-left-wing-case-for-brexit/

Allygran1, Ref yesterdays comments( 22.43) I can’t believe you have posted such a self important post, how arrogant.

Please stop preaching to us about accepting the fact that about a million more people voted to leave the EU that voted to remain within it. It was a very SMALL majority whether you look at in figures or percentage.

When any vote is won because huge lies were told it is hardly a fair vote or a democratic one and more and more nasty stuff is coming out about the stinking way the referendum was run.
It was after all only passed by our democratic parliament as an advisory referendum.

welshwife an international exporter talking on radio4 this morning thought the figure quoted by HMRC ridiculous stating he paid between £1-2 for the same documentation to export to the rest of the world.

Maybe it's drip...drip...drip, keep them scared then it will be a pleasant suprise when it's not as bad as we've painted.

Bridget Your views are always welcome you are polite and straightforward without belittling or nasty asides. We might be on line but I for one am not going to allow certain people to 'speak' to me in that way. You identify it as arrogance I on the other hand see it as standing up for myself when being abused. If someone spoke to you in the street in that way, I imagine you would do what I would do and that is walk away. That is exactly what I am doing on line. If certain people's post contain insults of any sort I will not respond to them on the subject. If you consider that arrogant then we shall have to disagree.

I do wish those voiciferous remainers who keep espousing that the referendum was won on lies would accept firstly that NO it was not and secondly any lies at that time were from both remain and leave in equal measure.

Interesting that allyg (above) gives us a long post praising Tony Benn who is considered left wing Labour. Are you an extreme left winger Labour supporter allyg?

Perhaps arrogance was the wrong word to use, it’s is an opinions forum & sad to say Alley you do to tell others how they should or should not couch their comments, disagree with the content by all means but not the delivery.

Day6 - "Politics - not a lack of practical solutions - is preventing a solution to the Irish border problem"

Dr Graham Gudgin is Chief Economic Advisor to Policy Exchange, a member of Briefings for Brexit, an Honorary Research Associate at the University of Cambridge’s Centre for Business Research (CBR) and a former Special Adviser to the Northern Ireland First Minister.

“I believe that an Irish border without physical infrastructure is fully attainable, and that the overly complex Customs Partnership is unnecessary. Arrangements based on the UK’s proposals for an expanded trusted trader scheme and exemptions for small traders will suffice to operate a border without infrastructure. The additional idea of a cordon sanitaire around the whole island for animal health may have additional merit, as long as it carries no constitutional implications that unionists would reject.

The key point is that modern technology means that physical customs posts, or even cameras, are no longer essential at borders. This is the case made by the EU’s own customs expert, Lars Karlsson, who envisages the use of mobile phone and GPS technology to track HGVs, together with the computer-based customs clearing which is the norm across much of the world.

Supporters of UK membership of the EU Customs Union assert that no border exists anywhere in the world without some physical infrastructure. This is true but irrelevant.

Nor do we believe that the Good Friday Agreement is particularly affected by Brexit – a view confirmed by Lord Trimble, who wrote the foreword for our new paper. The reason for avoiding a hard border is rather to avoid endangering officials charged with erecting, maintaining or operating border infrastructure. The danger of dissident paramilitaries attacking infrastructure or the associated officials has been heightened by the over-reaction of opponents of Brexit but precautions are now necessary.

The Irish Government is playing a dangerous game by demanding that Northern Ireland remain within the EU Customs Union and by threatening vetoes. Ireland – more than any EU economy – needs free trade with the UK but has made no efforts to promote such an agreement in Brussels. Indeed, its main effort has been to frustrate moves in this direction, because the Irish border is being used as a weapon by Brussels to influence the Brexit negotiations to its advantage.

The Irish border issue has disproportionately dominated discussion over the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the EU. It has been used as a tool for negotiating advantage by Brussels and political advantage by Dublin.

In London, arch-Remainers have used it to scaremonger about the threat to the Good Friday Agreement and peace in Northern Ireland. These concerns are not supported by evidence. A solution that respects the Brexit referendum and maintains a light-touch border is achievable. A recognition of the economic and political reality, and a little good faith, can help achieve a solution that promotes prosperity for all sides – and preserves peace.
brexitcentral.com/post-brexit-irish-border-without-physical-infrastructure-fully-attainable/

Bridgeit Thu 24-May-18 13:51:33
"Perhaps arrogance was the wrong word to use, it’s is an opinions forum & sad to say Alley you do to tell others how they should or should not couch their comments, disagree with the content by all means but not the delivery."

I agree it is an opinion and debating forum where people can couch their arguments their disagreements to inform and put alternative views. What they cannot do at least to me, is insult the person, belittle the person, or abuse the person. That is not acceptable in any circumstance. If you consider that acceptable delivery, as you put it, then again we will have to disagree Bridgeit. In my book it is simply abusive.
Play the ball not the person!

I think that it may all be different after Brexit as many. countries have agreements with the EU at the moment which will no longer be valid. A strange thing for him to say though if it was just speculation.
A number of people have said about what boils down to some form of technological border between NI and Eire but the techie-techie chaps say it is a bit of a way off at the moment.
I daresay in a few years we will all be chipped soon after birth and that will get rid of the need for passports etc -just need to have one of thos reader things run over us!

But you don’t Alley, but you just don’t see it.

Allygran1
Your composure throughout this constant 'ragging' is commendable.

So pleased to see so many intelligent, interesting comments on this thread it has been a very informative journey, I would still vote the same way if given another opportunity.

Bridget just take a look at the post made by"
"mostlyharmless Thu 24-May-18 13:47:03
Interesting that allyg (above) gives us a long post praising Tony Benn who is considered left wing Labour. Are you an extreme left winger Labour supporter allyg?"

Now why would I want to respond to that! May I suggest Bridgeit that in your aim to genuinly and with good intention I believe to police me, that your attention might be turned to the antagonist's. To whom I will not be responding unless the post's are free from antagonistic comments.

As are others .

Thanks for the support Joelsnan.

So Brexiteers don’t believe the HMRC costings on Boris’s favourite “ max fac” Irish border system.
Yes £20 billion a year sounds excessive, much more than the £13 billion net we currently pay in total to the EU. But perhaps Brexiteers are just dreamers living in a dream world with no tax office costings to spoil their visions.

I’m sorry Allygran1, it’s impossible, everyone of us has a blind spot. your input of opinions & knowledge is interesting & great for instigating meaningful debate,but telling others how they should express, back up , substantiate their opinions is just not necessary, either you understand what they are saying or you don’t ,but don’t keep telling others that they have to substantiate every opinion with a lengthy discourse of how they arrived at said opinion.

So do it take it from that allyg that you’re not a Bennite leftie. Your espousal of left wing Tony Benn’s thinking was interesting.
How could you consider what I said “antagonistic”? I’m just trying to follow your logic. Surely it’s not unreasonable to ask someone fond of quoting Tony Benn if you were a left winger?

joelsnan in one breath you say there were NO lies by the leave campaign - the next breath - lies were equally distributed - so you admit there were lies???

Welsh wife -"Please stop preaching to us about accepting the fact that about a million more people voted to leave the EU that voted to remain within it. It was a very SMALL majority whether you look at in figures or percentage".

The size of the majority vote is irrelevant in our democratic electoral system the majority wins.

But to pretend the whole population is united and overwhelmingly in agreement is inaccurate.

Bridgeit
Maybe you should read my post agin. Did it mention Brexiteers? The guy speaking to John Humphrey was an International xporter FFS!

The split is about 50/50 in real terms and had it gone the other way Nigel told us he would continue and continue until he got another referendum - goose and gander come to mind.