Unions and strikes -a real threat or just a succesful media promotion.

"Allygran1 Mon 28-May-18 18:02:36
Grandad sadly all that Corbyn has achieved is to form an activist group made up of largely very well educated, privileged, professionals from elite groups:.

Grandad with respect you have misinterpreted what I said above. The activist group is Momentum, not the trade Unions or the Labour Party Membership. These are people who form the hierarchy of Momentum (see the article on the post).

As for your comments about Trade Union education I associate with your comments from my own experiences in one of my working lives, at the Co-operative College in Loughborough where we taught amongst other things, Trade Union studies, and Co-operative business to the world from the British students of all ages, Icelanders, Soloman Islanders and everywhere inbetween.

My view is that it is not good to become myopic on these matter's. Our experience (anyone of us) is only relevant if it is current. So now I can't do I read and try to keep up to speed, as it seems we all do on Gransnet.

I am sorry if I was not clear in the original post.

As I remember it, and God I do because i was involved. Do not offer excuses, those children were murdered , lies were told so no guilt laid fully at anyone’s feet because of the strength of the unions. Why didn’t they demand justice ? Not a damn squeak .

Read the findings on the enquiry and do not excuse the guilty.

Yes I keep referring to it, will continue to do so every time there is praise for unions being for the working man, not so.

anniebach, you keep referring to the Aberfan disaster and its following enquiry. The collapse of an enormous slag heap onto a school was indeed one of the worst acts of negligence by any professional body (the National Coal Board) in the history of mining.

However, that negligence occurred was in1966 and the act of parliament that would have brought those responsible to justice did not pass into enactment until 1974. That parliamentary bill was the Health & Safety at Work legislation and was brought about as a response to the Aberfan disaster and other large workplace incidents that came about in the 1950s and 1960s.

Sadly, at the time of the of the disaster at Aberfan there was not the strength of legislation to bring anyone in top management at the National Coal Board to real justice as I remember it.

Lord Robens was economical with the truth was in the papers and at the enquiry, I heard it

Allygran1, in response to your posting today @ 18:02 (28/05/18) I have never been a member of Momentum, but have been a subscribing trade union member since 1970. In that the Transport & General Workers Union (now the Unite Union) have provided me, along with many thousands of others with much of my basic and adult education by way of its services to its members.

Therefore, to state that the hierarchy of the Labour movement is made up of largely very well educated, privileged, professionals from elite groups is simply a fallacy in regard to those from within the union movement. Certainly within the Unite Union and I would believe most other unions all those involved in organising are recruited from within the membership and the positions are not advertised outside the organisation.

Len McCluskey, his deputy Steve Turner and all the National Organizers along with the Regional and District Secretaries are brought up through the organisation from the roots of being workplace shop floor reps. Only staff positions are advertised and recruited from outside the organisation.

In the above it is simply not the case for anyone to state that any of the above persons have come from an elite privileged backgrounds. Many of them like myself have gained a better education from the union services and then made their way up the ladder either inside or outside the union benefiting from the tremendous support and education given to any who wish to take part.

As stated I know little of Momentum and its membership background, but I do believe that many grassroots activists from the trade unions were involved in Momentum at its outset to gain more democracy throughout the Labour movement.

The above in regards to education and trade union organisation has been my own personal experience over many years and not something printed in a newspaper.

If you join a thread and feel the need to comment, it’s a good idea to read the whole thread allyg otherwise you’re in danger of misinterpreting things or just repeating what has already been said.
This point has been put forward many times but it is not always possible to do that, particularly on a very long thread.
Perhaps referring back to the OP occasionally is a good idea?

Ok so you think Labour’s policies would be costly.
But investing more money into an economy creates jobs, spending and investment and ultimately creates a buoyant, healthy economy.
This has been proven many times.
Austerity on the other hand, forces cuts to services, cash strapped NHS, creates lower employment with insecure jobs and zero hours contracts, and lowers wages. Tax receipts plummet as wages are low and debts increase. It results in low growth.
I know which I prefer.

I share you views Ally

Mostly I should also have said, that a list of some Labour manifesto pledges is misleading for me. The point I was making that it indicated on analysis that Corbyn's promises based on that list, were either unsustainably costly requiring enormous borrowing to fulfil, or in the case of the Student debt wipe out were never intended to be fulfilled. This lead me to believe that a Corbyn Labour Government would be unable to run this Country without bankrupting us.

It would be wrong to associate a Corbyn Labour Government with socialism as I recognise it. But it does indicate from the manifesto analysis, that Corbynist policy's and view of socialism would be unworkable from a cost alone, without eventually reducing the country proud socialist achievements to penury within five to ten years. These of course are personal views.

Good grief mostly harmless I have had posts repeated from three years ago, not even related to the thread they were posted on.

If you join a thread and feel the need to comment, it’s a good idea to read the whole thread allyg otherwise you’re in danger of misinterpreting things or just repeating what has already been said.

Yes quite! Scrapping fees was a pledge, wiping out past debt was not. That’s not what you said in your “analysis” upthread.

On reading threads, whenever I catch up with them, I contribute with response, on a previous page or not. You need not respond. Just carry on with the thread you are promoting at that time, at the moment is Trade Unions because that is "the message" at the moment I can see that. You will see I also contributed to that.

As I say just don't respond if you think it has past and not relevant to you. As you saw other people did find it relevant to them and responded.

"Mostly:Two different things are being confused here.
Scrapping tuition fees was in the manifesto, but scrapping past student debts was not."

Corbyn and John McDonnell on the scrapping of past student debts. Your right it was not eventually in the manifesto but it was a verbal pledge pre election by Corbyn.

"John McDonnell has rowed back slightly on Jeremy Corbyn’s pre-election suggestion that Labour could wipe out existing student debt, saying this was “an ambition” for the party in power but would not necessarily happen.

"In an interview with the New Musical Express shortly before last month’s election, Corbyn had said Labour would “deal with” the debt of students who had already taken out loans for tuition fees."

Read more
www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jul/05/poorest

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/16/john-mcdonnell-wiping-out-student-loans-labour-jeremy-corbyn

You’ve resurrected an old thread for some reason.
The Labour manifesto was put there to point out that accusations of Corbyn’s Labour being “hard left” made by posters were nonsense.
allyg you analysed it point by point and failed to prove that it was hard left, also confusing things in the manifesto with things that weren’t in the manifesto at all.

Thanks Iam64!

Anniebach Politics creates strange bedfellows!

There must be something in it for both of them.

Grandad sadly all that Corbyn has achieved is to form an activist group made up of largely very well educated, privileged, professionals from elite groups to develop activist cells, who largely intimidate, harass and heckle the grassroots as you call them of the Labour Party out of the local Labour movement.

On a Natonal level the use of digital, technological communication, infiltrate and try to influence through similar tactics of groups attempting to intimidate others with different views into silence using personalised attacks. Whilst Momentum has distanced themselves from one group identified as using such tactics, they are forming a legitimate youth group of their own, who will receive all the training in the activists handbook.

Interview with Jon Lansman
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/16/momentum-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-politics-john-harris

Someone posted the Labour Manifesto and listed the policy areas. I merely added some meat to the list.

So the reason it is here on the thread was introduced by someone else. Mine is merely a response.

“Day6 Mon 30-Apr-18 19:50:49
If you are not pro-Momentum and pro-Corbyn you are cast into the wilderness. You'd be vetted for your hard-left credentials. There is NO ROOM FOR MODERATES within the Labour Party.”

“Disliking Corbyn and his Marxist cronies is quite common amongst the chattering classes. Annie is not a lone voice in resenting the power of Momentum and the Corbyn leadership. How could any Labour moderate make their voice heard in the present climate? No chance!”

Allygran1: Grandad, I hope the above answers your question. Do you have a view about the increasing power of Momentum, it's political strong arm activist tactics as it infiltrates and takes over the Labour Party?

Ditto above in response to your second question about why we are discussing Momentum.
Here is some more:
Momentum Members’ Survey 2016/17
Turnout
Number of Momentum members that were sent the survey: 20,076 Number of Momentum members that filled in the survey: 8,100 Percentage of Momentum members that filled in the survey: 40.35%

One set of questions asked indicate the nature of the activities the Momentum members get involved in:
Answer Choices
Responses
Provide campaign materials, resources and a network of speakers
(1)
Run training and workshops on activism, campaigning and political education
(2)
Support Labour Party engagement with information, resources and mentoring
(3)
Provide access to digital technology to support campaigning, including online discussion platforms and phone-canvassing technology
(4)
Provide day to day group admin support
(5)
Support organising activities, campaigns and events in your local area
(6)
Other (please specify)
(7)

Interestingly question 2. Running workshops on activism etc.... the highest percentage vote of 71.07%
Question 4 providing access to digital technology ..........including online discussion platforms came in at 57.5%.

The whole survey is interesting it give insight into the activities of Momentum from the survey questions asked. The link is:
d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/momentum/pages/939/attachments/original/1484068264/Momentum_members_survey_16-17.pdf?1484068264

Activist in the 21st Century are not just carrying placards they are in our computers, or websites, and are being ‘trained’ in how to manipulate the information and the psychology of reinforcing their message through group intimidation tactics. This is the dark side of political activism and smacks at another time, in another Country when youth movements were formed and groups of ‘muscle’ for a certain Political leader wore ‘black shirts’. See the link:

Interview with Jon Lansman
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/16/momentum-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-politics-john-harris

I too could not see how going through the last Labour manifesto had any connection to the perceived threat (or not as the case may be) of the trade unions to the stability of this country.

And who is John McDonald?

I can’t see what “analysing” the Labour Party manifesto has to do with this thread.

Where did the point by point analysis come from? So many misconceptions and misinterpretations in the “analyses”.

^1.Scrap student tuition fees:
Analysis:
Retracted pledge (Angela Rayner) and John McDonald:
Labour retracted its pledge to abolish student debt yesterday as Shadow Education Secretary Angela Rayner said there had been “no plans” to write-off existing loans and her party “never promised to do so”^

Two different things are being confused here.
Scrapping tuition fees was in the manifesto, but scrapping past student debts was not.
The right wing press choose deliberately to confuse the two issues. It was NOT a retracted pledge.

This has been discussed many times on these threads before and is old news.

Could it be? surely not, yet it could be- McClusky told Corbyn he wanted his friend Jennie Formby for the job.

Nah, Corbyn wouldn’t dance to McClusky’s tune ?

I believe that is correct mostlyharmless.