Just listened to a radio piece on this awful attack on the Russian spy and his daughter in which 21 people were affected. one suggestion why these attacks are carried out in the UK was that the response of the UK in the past e.g. Litvinyenko has been weak, so whoever carries out such attacks has no fear of comeback. What can the UK do? Boycott the World Cup?
Exactly varian. Illogical.
I was watching May last night, and she reminded me of Thatcher when she declared war in the Falklands. Both seeking knee jerk populist support knowing the patriotic public would line up behind them.
Yes, Argentina did invade the Falklands, yes Russia is likely behind this, but both milking the situation for their own political gain. Disgraceful ??
In regard to what others have stated, why would/has Putin carryout such an attack with the World Cup only months away?
My belief would be that he calculated that the international reaction will not go as far as the major footballing nations withdrawing from the tournament. Sadly, that calculation at this point in time look's to be correct. Therefore, Putin will be able to portray himself to the Russian population as the "iron man" leading a country that all others bow before.
The above is historically typical of the action of a "fascist dictatorship" state and that is what European governments have to "wake up" to and take action in.
Reading all the guff from Russian apologists ( not to mention Corbyn apologists) makes me wonder what on earth this country would face, with JC at the helm if we ever really did have serious problems to deal with.
It is looking more likely now, that the nerve agent was added to the daughter’s luggage in Moscow.
T May gave the Russians a potential let out by saying they could have lost control somehow of the novichok, and others from Russia could have used it.They didn’t want that to be thought as no doubt they needed people to believe that they had used it ( even whilst protesting that they hadn’t) they may as well have just winked as they were saying it.
Their whole demeanour shouted guilty! They didn’t even pretend to be concerned, just gave out dismissive rhetoric.
That says a lot.It says ‘ we will do as we please, down an airliner there, help barrel bomb Syrians here,annexe part ofa country there, use a deadly banned nerve agent here ‘etc.
Someone up thread mentioned that Putin was disliked because he was a Communist......hardly!
What Russia is now, is essentially a dictatorship ( elections a formality) it’s not a Communist one though, more of a fascist one.
It does seem possible that this nerve agent could have fallen into the hands of other groups in Russia.
The Russian economy is so week that apparently at one time when their military personnel had not been paid, some "helped themselves" to weapons including AK45s which then found their way to conflicts in other countries.
This prospect is even more scary than the though that the Russian government could have been directly responsible.
Varian, I believe that had a terrorist group gained access to this nerve agent they would have used it in central London, Paris or even New York, but certainly not in Salisbury just to dispense with an ex spy.
All the evidence points to state sponsored action and all who have seen the British evidence have given the UK full backing in its accusations against the Russian State Goverment.
Grandad1943 It doesn't have to be a "terrorist group" it couldbe an arms dealer looking for an opportunity to show that what he was selling was the real stuff and what could be done with it. But of course the terrorist group would be buying to use elsewhere and the sad fact is that if the Government is focussed entirely on Russia they may well be allowing other groups to plan actions.
lemongrove people questioning the involvement of Russia are not Russian apologists they are people with enquiring minds who are open to ideas and prefer to have proper investigations rather than knee jerk reactions. They do not react with blind and unrestrained support when they do not have the full facts. It isn't unpatriotic. It is sensible.
It could have been a terrorist group, it could have been an arms dealer, it could have been the Russian mafia. Everyone is guessing. As far as I am aware no-one posting on GN has seen all the evidence and information which has been collected so none of us are in possession of all the facts. The evidence would have been presented to the various international bodies who have come out in support of the UK's reaction.
Yes, just like the ‘evidence’ of WMD presented before the invasion of Iraq you mean Oldwoman? ?
Lemongrove just because some of us prefer to deal with verified facts and not just ‘possible’ or ‘likely’ that doesn’t make us ‘apologists’ for anything.
Remember ‘fools rush in....’
OldMeg the reports of WMDs came from "intelligence" sources and was blown out of proportion by the government of the day. Are you suggesting that the police, security personnel and medical professionals involved in collecting the evidence in this case are all in on some conspiracy? I have no idea whether Russia was behind this attack because I don't have any "verified facts"
No-one is likely to actually ask any of us to deal with it. Nor has anyone actually published in full the evidence that has been obtained, or the security route by which it was extracted. So really we can only guess and speculate about who is behind the attack and what their motives were. Some guesses are more likely to be valid than others but they are still only guesses.
On the other hand, the PM has the reports of chemical labs and the security forces, and her consultations with other governments have resulted in them backing up her reactions re Russia. Don't you think that she is more likely than any of us to be on the right lines? When/if we get access to the same facts what are the odds we will/would reach the same conclusions?
I’m saying let us stop short of making accusations based on partial facts.
In fact the report of the working party on the ground in Iraq made it quite clear they found no evidence of WMD. I remember that well, but it was dismissed by our government and the US.
We’ve been misled before. Let’s get the facts from a recognised international body with the resources to do so before we rush headlong into blame.
On the other hand, the PM has the reports of chemical labs and the security forces, and her consultations with other governments have resulted in them backing up her reactions re Russia. Don't you think that she is more likely than any of us to be on the right lines?
Unfortunately Tony Blair sunk that idea. Showing it was possible for PMs to influence the reports they were handed and to ensure they fitted nicely with their proposed actions and that the governments they spoke to were ones that would. agree with. them.
This is what happens now since the WMD debacle.
I'd have thought that the history of TB and WMD would have made it likely that a PM would take a lot of care NOT to repeat his actions.
Does anyone have any conclusive evidence of any other likely sources to compare with the Russia theory? Or is it just, "She is bound to be lying to us"?
No, but we are not the ones who are jumping in with both feet. We are saying wait for the evidence.
Quote[ trisher 16/03/18. @ 14:25
Grandad1943It doesn't have to be a "terrorist group" it could be an arms dealer looking for an opportunity to show that what he was selling was the real stuff and what could be done with it. But of course the terrorist group would be buying to use elsewhere and the sad fact is that if the Government is focussed entirely on Russia they may well be allowing other groups to plan actions.,]End Quote
Trisher, It seems rather implausible to say the least that any arm's dealer would carry out an assassination attempt on an Ex spy in a city the size of Salisbury to "demonstrate" the ability of the nerve agent they have. In the foregoing arms dealers work "below the radar" selling conventional arms to groups often legitimately.
In the above, if the Russian government has any reason to believe that this nerve agent has been extracted beyond its security, why do they not come forward with that information to the British government and others now involved in this situation. In that way they would cooperating finding who is responsible and how any group or person came to have the agent. After all, if this agent is in terrorist hands, then Russia is as vulnerable to attack as any other nation, as recent history has proven
Russia has, contrary to the above action engaged in a media blitz of mocking, disparaging and insulting remarks that (I and many others in this thread believe) are designed to deflect the evidence backed accusations against them.
As has been already requested on this thread from those that doubt any Russian state involvement and "conspiracy theorists", why else has Putin and those that surround him reacted in the way that they have, if not for deflection of sound allegations against them.
Should be "would be cooperating in finding" above. Apologies.
"The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons has already overseen the destruction of all Russia's chemical weapons manufacturing capability and all its stockpiled weapons. It reported on this last year."
Interesting.
Assuming that all stocks were destroyed, Russia would still have the "knowledge" to restore production should
Russia has backed the Syrian government in the use of chemical weapons in its war, nerve agent is a small step from that.
UK has sold ingredients to make Sarin to Syria.
Nerve agents are chemical weapons Grandad
Was that back in the 1980's Jen?
Uzbekistan?
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