Corbyn and Momentum

No one has called anyone a troll Primrose as well you know. It’s really not fair to make things up, particularly when it diverts from what could be an interesting discussion.

So dragging me into a post GG didn't divert from the discussion nightowl?

Anyone ever heard of Raymond Mawby Tory MP?

No? Pity,because he was the Tory the right wing press has forgotten to mention who was in the pay of the Czech security service.

Oh dear.

There have been many people in the pay of a foreign nation, either full blown spies or friendly to a certain type of politics, but Mawby was not in a position to be a future Prime Minister.
So what is your point whitewave

Unless you wish to bring up more comments about Corbyn meeting Czech ‘diplomats’?

What an interesting input from you Grandad 1943.

I am correct in my understanding of your posts am I not, you are stating that Momentum was and always has been an organisation that was started by Unite Union with Jon Lansman??

To quote your words:-

" In regard to the formation of Momentum and its influence on the Labour party, that can easily be tracked back to the Unite unions forward thinking in the formation of its Community Branches several years ago."

"The independent Community Branches (also joined later by activists from other leading unions) formed an affiliation under which Momentum was brought into being. "

"The rule book of most Trade Unions do not the allow their central or regional administrations to affiliate to any other political Party other than the Labour party. However, the umion branch structure have their own funding accounts and are allowed to contribute to "local requirements" they feel justify funding. Therefore, as Momentum formed out of the community branches they funded (affiliated) to those local Momentum branches and still do where necessary I believe."

"Those forming community branches began to communicate with each other and in that sought out a national structure and that is where Lansman and others became involved. That national structure became Momentum under Lansmans organisation not directly linked to Unite or any other union but still having close links to local industrial and community branches."

" Whether Tom Watson is aware of how trade union branches have contributed to the formation of Momentum I would not know. However, if he is not aware then he would be in-line with many of the other "career politicians" in the Labour Party who do not know of or relies the deep history between the Labour party and grass roots trade union members that thankfully is very much still in existence and once again growing."

"The industrial and now community branch spending is decided on by the branch officers by way of the local structures they have. Much of that spending goes into assisting members in such things as industrial tribunals, education courses and distress caused by loss of earnings through workplace accident etc. The foregoing can also include funding of any local Momentum structure if they wish, which may be not be large by each individual branch but can be substantial when totaled together."
--

I have followed the rise of Momentum, spoken and debated Momentum on Gransnet from it's inception and I can honestly say that I would not be remotely surprised if the connection between the Unions, especially the Unite Union , has been there from the start of Jeremy for Leader / Momentum. However I have reservations as to this being the case and would like to ask you for further input accepting you may hold more knowledge.

To raise points of question I need to be clear that you are declaring Jeremy for Leader / Momentum and the Unite Union are one of the same and have been colluding for years. .

I wonder if this thread will be out on FB?

Anyone ever heard of Raymond Mawby Tory MP?

Yes. This was mentioned on another politics thread this week and I said there it was widely reported in the press 6 years ago.

Oh dear indeed.

I think many of us have been reading Grandad's much questioned excellent posts as they were made but this is what I have understood and please shout in I have misinterpreted anything Grandad.

Trade Unions rules don't the allow their central or regional administrations to affiliate to any other political Party other than the Labour party. However, union branches, using their own funding accounts, with branch officers making decisions, are allowed to contribute to justifiable "local requirements". Much spending assists members in such things as industrial tribunals, education courses and distress caused by loss of earnings through workplace accident etc.

These independent community Branches, joined by activists from other leading unions brought Momentum into being and funded (affiliated) to those local Momentum branches. Community branch leaders began to communicate with each other to form a national structure. Lansman became involved at this point. That national structure became Momentum under Lansmans organisation and, although it was not directly linked to Unite or any other union, it did maintain close links to local industrial and community branches. Grandad does not feel he could be aware of what Tom Watson would know regarding trade union branch contribution to the formation of Momentum but has his own personal opinion on this.

Dear Andy

I understand that you are doing a god job as Mayor of Greater Manchester with some innovative ideas.

Greater Manchester is as large as some small countries, and the population of 2.8 million is larger than many countries.
You have held offices of state in the Labour government (although I will say that Secretary of State for Health may not be considered your finest hour - however I think you may have learnt from that).

May we consider that your present position is a practice run for becoming Prime Minister of the UK when people decide that the lurch to the left is too far for many and the populace decides it is time for a change from the Tories?
At 48, time is on your side but please don't leave it too late.

Yours
Jalima

a god job [sic]
A good job

Andy Burnham could be a vote winner for a lot of people Jalima. Have you sent it to him yet?

Andy won't stand again, and if Corbyn did stand down Lansman will appoint his successor, no point in any left of centre MP standing , pity because there are several who would make a good leader and win the votes in middle England

Exactly the problem isn’t it, that Corbyn’s successor will be chosen for their far left politics.
Still, in politics all kinds of unexpected things happen.

True lemon, but this is not the politics this country has always known, Michel Foot didn't need powers lurching in the shadows . Thinking back to the last two leadership elections, David Milliband was way ahead then came the union vote and Ed was leader, I didn't expect him to win and he didn't, then in comes Corbyn .

One newspaper leads with - ex MI6 officer says Corbyn has questions to answer

You’re not wrong ab -I’ll say he has questions to answer.Here’s mine

1. When are you going to prove that you didn’t eat a baby last week?
2. When are you going to hold a press conference about your affair with Ann Widdiecombe?
3. When are you going to publish your jam recipe?
4. When are you going to confess to queue jumping to get your allotment

I think we should be told

I suspect you are not being entirely serious Maryeliza
On the very serious Maybot thread, these are the sort of questions that they pose ( but to Gove or Boris usually.)
Perhaps you could try emailing Momentum HQ with this list and see what they say.?

I believe that many have to realise that the mainstream Labour party has fundamentally changed since 2010 and in that many in the Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP) have failed to reflect that change. The relationship between the trade unions along with the wider Labour movement in the country and the Blair government became extremely strained due not only to the Iraq war, but also due to his government's refusal to rescind any of the Thatcher trade union regulations her government introduced.

In the above, following the 2008 banking crisis the wider Labour movement in the country began the search for change headed by the trade unions that Blair seemed to despise. That resentment was based on the lack of respect and reciprocation to the fact that those unions continued to pay almost all of Labours bills throughout that party's years in the wilderness (1979-1997).

The above rethink has brought about Momentum and a far more radical national Labour Party in the country which is still not reflected by many in the Parliamentary party, hence the threat to their re-selection by their constituency parties. However, what those who do not wish to stand with the wider party fail to perceive or answer, is that those new radical policies introduced by that wider movement have brought forward a national party membership of over half a million.

The Labour party in the country along with Momentum and a reinvigorated trade union movement feel they are reflecting a deep change in the mood of the country brought about by the housing crisis, low wages and the lack of social mobility.

At the last general election the conservative party began the campaign with a lead of almost 20 points over Labour. When that campaign ended the conservatives had lost their majority and Labour had increased their Parliamentary presence.

What the left believe is that there is a growing wish for change in the country, especially among young, middle Britain as radical as that which brought the Clement Atlee government to power in 1945.

Many of us wait to see if those perceptions and beliefs will be fulfilled when the electorate are asked once again to choose.

I do enjoy your analytical style Grandad and find your conclusions interesting. There are some dangers for the LP though.

I agree there is a wish for change and it's not just in this country. It is certainly shown by Brexit as well as the huge growth in membership of the LP - but on the continent and in the USA, globally in fact and the answer is not always a turn to the left.

This change seems to be based on people feeling two things; that they are not heard and that they are not valued. Both of these do not mean those who have felt disconnected want to hear complex facts, even though those facts may matter, some will but those who do not see themselves as political may not.

I have no doubt the LP has does not expect to carry certain voters with them but those who have come on board may not yet be (or ever be) wedded to the party. I feel their biggest difficulty is to convince the new members, supporters, and the 'probably will' voters that they are both being listened to and understood. They didn't manage this with Brexit. Although that was a much more difficult I do wonder if they can keep up and increase the sense that they are hearing these people and that they are offering something really new that really will, even if it takes time, meet their needs.

ab I take it you have carried out due diligence on this ex- MI6 bloke aka Richard Dearlove? What a wonderful reliable unbiased source of information he is. The problem with espousing ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend’ is that you can end up with some very dodgy friends.

And sadly maryeliza, many Labour voters feel the party they allied with has deserted them. It has become the home of far left militants. If your friends become unrecognisable and hostile, and aggressively so, as debates on GN highlight, where does a former Labour supporter find like minds? Momentum now drives the Labour party. Lots of idealistic youngsters may have jumped on this revolutionary bandwagon and boosted Labour's numbers, and it now seems those who fear what Labour has become, can be trampled underfoot unless they unite under yet another NEW Labour - the one with Corbyn and Momentum leading it. Ordinary working class people are looking to the Conservative party now to recognise their plight and their futures. Labour represents aggressive and militant hard left members, those looking to overthrow the establishment. Their cheerleaders are their " useful idiots". No wonder thousands feel disenfranchised and fearful of where this aggressive far left body is heading. Their rebellion is not ours. It's an overthrow they want, and power.

I agree with much of what you say Day6 but I do feel that just accepting what papers like the DT and the DM report about what people like Dearlove say ( he was one of those involved in producing the dodgy dossier) is no way to address the issues. There is a serious problem with bias in the MSM and much of it IS owned by people who are either not citizens of this country and/or are not domiciled here for tax purposes. I really do feel that people who have and exercise influence over the political direction of this country should at least live and pay taxes here. The disenfranchised working class will not find their salvation with the Conservatives will they?

grandad your summary of where the Labour Party is at present is good. The movement in the country shows that many feel disaffected and disenfranchised and indeed this goes further up the income scale than many realise.

Brexit and the Corbyn support epitomises this phenomenon. I am sure that very few who introduced austerity understood the consequences of such a blunt tool to tackle the banking crash at the end of the 00s.

What will be interesting are the consequences of a Brexit which if all the economic forecasts are correct, and the latest figures show that indeed the consequences of Brexit are indeed beginning to bite as expected. It will also be interesting to see how, those disenfranchised,and without an apparent stake in society who if this government continues with the austerity programme will react.

Interestingly I see that a Corbyns office is to support a Unite Officer to replace Ian McNicol