Why so much surprise over Corbyn calling for Labour to Abstain?

PS. I've been very disappointed with Starmer. If Labour is playing the long game, it's not very opaque and they aren't being very coherent.

dj No, I can't explain, because I don't know. Do you mean when they were in coalition?

Of the current bunch of MPs who have resigned/been sacked, I know what Zeichner said during the recent election, because Cambridge is a neighbouring constituency.

Cambridge is very strongly Remain and relies heavily on the single market. It has been a LibDem/Labour constituency for ages. Labour won it in 2015 and had a tiny majority, so it was an ultra-marginal.

I thought the LibDems would win it back in 2017, but Zeichner increased his majority. Cambridge ended up with a choice between two very good constituency candidates. The previous LD had been good, but so was Zeichner. Both believe passionately in Remain and Zeichner told voters he would do all he could for a "soft Brexit". I believe it was a matter of conscience for him to keep his word to his constituents and the majority on his Twitter feed support him.

This was the same line pushed by Jeff Smith in Manchester Withington, which is also strongly Remain and had been a LibDem seat, although not so marginal as Cambridge.

I had a number of discussions with my daughter about Labour and Remain. It's clear that she (and I suspect many others) voted for and supported Labour, because she thought they would find some way to soften Brexit. My argument always was that a "soft Brexit" can't happen and has ever been defined - I still don't see how it can. My opinion is that Labour has been less than honest about its stance on Brexit.

It was obvious Corbyn wanted out during the campaign, no tv debates, some appearances in halls arranged by momentum but not televised, his little holiday in the middle if it.

No, it isn't.

That's not what 'snippy' means durhamjen.

Snippy is always using oneliners. You can't accuse whitewave of that.

Doesn't it get tiring ww always being snippy on here?

ana That's because sometimes I'm feeling chatty and sometimes I post with more seriousness and thought.

Yours of course are always the same because you generally only do one liners

OK I believe you. Strange how some of your posts are completely different in style though.

pogs there is no logic in your argument

Assuming that you agree that leaving the EU means leaving the market of 4 principles

That is the Labour Party position.

So leaving the EU can't at the same time mean that we remain in the single market.

BUT - it is recognised by the Labour Party that to crash out as many of the hard Brexiters have suggested will lead to disastrous consequences for jobs and the economy.

So Starmer etc, will negotiate to obtain as much as possible of the single market benefits. BUT it isn't the single market.

I was quite clear when voting Labour that it accepted the referendum vote, but I can't answer for others who clearly either did not read the manifesto, listen to what was being said or simply misunderstood.

From a personal point of view I think it is going to be an utter disaster if we leave the EU, and as each day passes I get more worried and more convinced that it is the worst decision this country has ever made. I just wish that it meant that those who voted remain weren't dragged into the gutter alongside the Leavers.

Message to ana no reference needed.

Daphne, can you explain why libdems abstained on the vote for an end to austerity?

Agreed POGS

Corbyn/ Labour have made significant gains in the last election and I won't be churlish to say anything other.

However they sold a story to the voter of being pro Single Market/ Customs Union / Soft Brexit by repeating mantra's.

"We want to stay in the Single Market and the Customs Union",

" Labour wants a jobs first Brexit that means staying in the Single Market / Customs Union "

" Nobody voted to be poorer by coming out of the Single Market".

This has been disingenuous and Keir Starmer who has flip flopped all over the place has been the worst of them all.

If there was a word of truth in this why would Corbyn not have backed Chuka Umunna's Amendment?

Corbyn has made his position very clear and the next time a Labour MP says "We want to stay in the Single Market / Customs Union" they will look even more disingenuous.

I would think there are quite a few Corbynistas who voted for Corbyn and had a blind faith that he would do anything possible to stay in the Single Market / Customs Union, they must be very confused by what has happened.

I think there could well be Lib Dems who voted tactically for Labour but must now be wishing they had voted for their party. Actually tactical voters from other parties must be pretty peeved also.

Corbyn has shown his true colours and I don't know why anybody is surprised a man who has been a eurosceptic all his political life did not back one of his own MP's Amendment.

An example of sourced information is my OP on the thread entitle "cliff edge "

Which post? Well actually let me say

If anything I say is from another source I will say so. So you can follow it up if you wish. So nothing on this thread that I have posted is from another post including my last post "why"

Was that post a quote from someone else, whitewave? It doesn't sound like you.

Why?

WW

"Leaving the EU as we all know means leaving the single market and all that entails as well as the customs union."

I am surprised to see you post that.

?

And their loyalty to those who voted for them is less important ?

Yes I know annie they resigned before they were pushed.

It does now leave room for manoeuvre for Corbyn, as he retained his shadow cabinet out of loyalty after the election.

Not all were sacked Whitewave, three resigned

Thank you oh wise one - got a crystal ball have you, whitewave?

So the Labour Manifesto accepts the referendum result and recognises that the UK is to leave the EU.

Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party.

Shadow Cabinet ministers should just like the cabinet show collective responsibility.

Leaving the EU as we all know means leaving the single market and all that entails as well as the customs union.

Chukka Umunna -for reasons of his own and which is not necessary to go into - tried to amend the QS by putting forward his suggestion that the UK stay in the single market.

Clearly Corbyn et al could not logically vote for this amendment as it would have made nonsense of the manifesto.

Many backbench MPs particularly Labour MPs are like me strong remainers and would really prefer that we stayed in the single market ergo the EU.

Some chose therefore to vote for the amendment. Corbyn has not chosen to punish them by taking away the whip, but he had absolutely no choice and is clearly confident in his authority to sack those shadow cabinet ministers who shunned collective responsibility.

Do not despair all those who are hoping for signs of a softer Brexit.

There is time enough. Labour will keep its powder dry until after the Tories have made a complete hash of Brexit and before we leave.

Sit back and watch the Tory spectacular train crash.

Patience will bring its reward.