Corbyn and the Monarchy and Armed Forces.

I did take it at face value because I don't know a great deal about Marxist theory. I read that he was referring to gangsters and petty criminals, but also to addicts, the unemployed and prostitutes. It sounded like a pretty harsh way of referring to people who had fallen on hard times or who had possibly never experienced anything but hard times.

Oh well, Marx used the term when developing a theory about how a classless society would come about and how each class would contribute to this type of society. He argued that the lumpenproletariate had in fact no class consciousness and therefore contributed to nothing to society and its economic production.

I won't bore you any more, but I think it is obvious that this theory has been overtaken by history!!!

John McDonnell often comments how he has formed his views on Karl Marx books , especially Das Kapital.

His throwing the Communist Chairman Mao Tse-tung Little Red Book at George Osborne in the House of Parliament was so telling. He tried to be passed it off as another one of his ' jokes ' but it told a story of who he is and what influences him. Well he had to say afterwards it was a another of his ' jokes ' because they were laughing at the irony of what he had just done and you could see his his back benchers cringing.

If McDonnell says he is a Marxist , I am more than happy to believe him , after all it was his mouth that said it.

As you wish pogs but sticking to such intransigence means that you are in danger of misunderstanding Labours policies.

GG MK 2

"POGS do keep your knickers on. ". Sigh.

Why would I report you?

I am more than happy for posters to read your words and make their own decision as to what you mean by stating

" After all we have seen people on here say "I'm a Labour Party member" or "I'm a Lib Dem" where, in my opinion, they eschew the politics of each of those parties and actually push the politics of the Tories.".

I stand by what I think of your comment but it is in no way reportable and I don't do that anyway. I gave you my opinion and you don't like it that's all.

WW

Ye Gods you accuse me of 'intransigence '.

You can't make Gransnet up sometimes.

You will be telling me to go off and have a chat with my right wing friends as you were having a cosy chat next . AGAIN.

Don't be silly pogs

I wouldn't have thought that McDonnell was a liar unless he was telling people he was a Marxist just to be a crowd-pleaser

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lCcFjRhiaw

WW

Silly how?

Corbyn earns £137.000.00 per year, went to a top private school, lived in a huge house and had a privileged life's style. How can he spout on about workers rights. Look at the salary of Mcdonneld and Abbot,( whose only songoes to a top private school) they are more conservative in their life style than most Tories.

Let's face it, wherever his background, Corbyn and all Labour politicians will be criticised - because they are Labour. £137,000 a year is a lot of money but it pales into complete insignificance when you consider people like Martin Sorrell, the CEO of marketing company WPP, who was paid £70million for the year 2015 - and there are many others like him.

If Corbyn had been born into a non-professional family, had a regional accent, lived in a council house and had gone to a "bog standard" school, some people would most certainly be accusing him of the "politics of envy" or of having a "chip on his shoulder".

So there you are. If you are Labour you can take your choice from being "a hypocrite/champagne socialist" or "envious".

Luckylegs did you get to choose your school? Or your parents. Why can't people from a privileged background have a social conscience and believe in socialist principles? You'll be telling us next that some of the people on here are too poor to be Tories next.

Ye gods and little fishes. Has the world gone mad?

Actually I feel we should take this seriously. Really, is T May's background really superior enough for her to be a Tory, let alone leader. Has she had the training to stick her nose in the air far enough and blame all the ills of the world on the poor?

Are some in denial here about McDonnell? Or Corbyn, come to that.Why does anyone think that anniebach a staunch Labour supporter dislikes them ( let alone anybody else) it's because they are hard left which is why many (160) Labour MP's also dislike them.They are taking the Labour Party into the wrong direction.If a moderate Labour Leader ( instead of Corbyn) had been at the helm, they would have won this last GE hands down.IMHO.

Does one need a superior back ground to vote conservative ?

they are not hard left...I think most of you forget that the Blair government was fairly right wing so anything left of that you believe to be far left,and THAT is nonsense ,even the SNP are more left leaning than Labour...or Corbyn and they can hardly be called marxist

McDonnell calls himself a Marxist!.

There is a denial that to be honest astounds me as to the mention of the term 'Hard Left'.

McDonnell and Corbyn were Hard Left in the days of Militant.

McDonnell and Corbyn have remained Hard Left throughout their entire political careers.

From the Guardian, Labour MP's themselves to the likes of respected commentators such as Andrew Marr the term Marxist is used to describe John McDonnell in particular.

You cannot rewrite the history of McDonnell and Corbyn there is simply too much factual information available.

pogs i am totally unclear where this insistance thst the Labour leadership is hard left is getting us?

If you were discussing policies or the manifesto that you considered were hard left - that would make sense.

But this hard left insistence is beginning to sound peculiar

It strikes me that you all make excuses for everything. So it is pointless. I believe in being realistic, we don't live in Utopia, difficult decisions have to be made, prioritise where the revenue is generated and spent. It is a pity we don't have enough cash for everything, everyone wants that , the hard fact is we don't. Our economy is good, just compare it with the rest of the world.

What's all this about not having enough cash? We are a rich country (5th largest economy) and so we ought to have a decent education system, health care, police and security, etc.

Since when has wanting these become 'everything' LL9?

Lesser countries manage that. Revenue can be raised so we don't have to borrow.

We do have the means just not the will.

There are other countries with similar economies which spend a greater % of their GDP on health, education, police, transport etc. What they do is have higher taxation on the wealthy and corporations etc. Why is wanting these things unrealistically?

RAR: .If a moderate Labour Leader ( instead of Corbyn) had been at the helm, they would have won this last GE hands down.IMHO.

Sorry rose your HO is nonsense. It is Corbyn who has increased the membership of the party, and Corbyn who has got the youth interested in politics. Another Blairite would have lost hands down

Another Blairite would have lost hands down

I think you're probably correct but I'm not altogether sure. It would be interesting to know how much of the Labour vote was an anti-austerity/defence of public services vote rather than a 'Corbyn' vote.

maize but perhaps a Blairite would not have been sufficiently different from the Tories for it to be worth changing? That is what the argument has been. The Blairites accepted the Tory neo liberal economics albeit it with a more liberal face, but never the less they continued with the Tory line. I think people are beginning to want a change from the past 30-40 years and return to a more social democratic form if government.

The problem is that the Tory party have very much occupied the middle ground in rhetoric if not in real actions, so a middle of the road Blairite Labour leader would be seen as indistinguishable from Cameron and May. In offering a real alternative with socialist policies Corbyn has managed to bring back to the Labour Party a really different path which appeals to everyone who believes in the principle of public services and a caring society.