So what do we want?

You are still arguing from the wrong perspective when it comes to what the country can/cannot 'afford'. As a socialist, Annie I would have thought that you would be enthusiastic about the revelations economists have made about how money is created and controlled.

Have a look at the 'Economics of running a nation' thread and read the link I posted to Simon Wren-Lewis's article. Or watch the Anne Pettifor video which dd posted on another thread (can't remember which). The idea that government spending is a BIG CON. That's not how it works at all.

Or read Richard Murphy's Tax Research blog (though I know people don't like him because of a very brief association with Corbynomics)

Try this one for yet another explanation of why the 'running the national budget like a household budget' is wrong

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/06/12/the-one-thing-we-cant-afford-is-the-institute-for-fiscal-studies/

Or just trying googling the phrase. You'll get lots of results.

Sorry, last post wasn't actually specifically aimed at Annie; aimed at anyone who believes the 'household budget' myth.

I have spoken to the school several times and been told that they are unable to predict how many children need a meal on any given day. They operate a "system" of sorts that sees the youngest children being fed first and the older children waiting. The older you are the later you go into the dining room so the problem arises that if you are in year 4-6 there is often very little left. We lost count how many times the girls were saying they only got a sandwich and a piece of fruit which is definitely not worth the cost of a meal.

Maizie, I am stating what I believe , you have no right to tell me I am arguing from the wrong perspective , I could say the same of you but I wouldn't patronise a poster , comes down to respect and good manners

And Mazie,in your post where you addressed me by name how can you follow it with a post claiming your post wasn't aimed at me , this post is not to anyone, it is addressed to you.

If anybody's interested and lives near Cambridge, I've just booked to go to this talk by Ann Pettifor:

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/ann-pettifor-a-fairer-economy-in-the-year-2027-tickets-34663203575?utm_campaign=new_attendee&utm_medium=email&utm_source=eb_email&utm_term=event_name

It's free!

What you believe, Annie isn't, according to the vast majority of academic economists (the people who actually study the subject), correct. Evidence trumps opinion.

Just because I mentioned you by name doesn't make the post personal to you. It was to everyone posting the 'we can't afford it' mantra. I just though you, in particular, as a socialist, would be heartened by the economists' conclusions.

Ann Pettifor is an advisor to Corbyn. Think I will listen to IFS, they critcised both manifsto's

To continue the running a household budget is not like running a country debate, if you think in terms of investment rather than spending it might make better sense to people.
We invest in mortgages to buy a house. It means we are shelling out more money but in the longer term we have an asset to show for our money. We invest in our own higher education because we know that (on average) people with degrees earn more money in the long term. We invest in repairs to our cars because we know that a breakdown costs more in inconvenience and repair bills.
Companies invest in new equipment to achieve more efficiency.
The Labour Manifesto proposes investing in people's health and education, their safety in terms of policing etc etc. This should create a long term boost for the economy rather than a short term saving.

George Osborne, who as Chancellor, started this austerity policy, doesn't have a background in economics (has a history degree) but interestingly Philip Hammond did study economics (PPE) as did Ed Balls.

I think (if I understand what you are saying correctly) the house purchase analogy is flawed mostlyharmless and based on a house increasing in value (as if putting money into a high interest savings account).

I know plenty people who went to university (my own DD included) who should not have gone, as she is working in a job that she could have got without the degree.

Our Labour council has invested in lots of empty office building that no-one will fill. It creases me how they say that "they" will create jobs in the NE. Note to council....buildings do not create jobs, nor do windbag councillors and officials.

John McDonnell (politics graduate) always tries to emphasise his proposals are investment rather than spending.

Yes gillybob these analogies aren't perfect, but if you take out a mortgage you are saving on rent as well as making a profit as prices go up. I know house price inflation is not the same all over the country, but still if you buy a house in your twenties or thirties, you should be mortgage free before you retire.
Graduates on average earn more than non graduates in the long term especially women graduates.

gillybob Two of my daughters have degrees but are earning very modest salaries, and my third daughter, who studied for a non degree level technical qualification, earns a fortune. But on average .......

To buy a house one needs a deposit

Retire??? that's a bit of a joke.

Anyway that aside. The house prices in our area of the NE are stagnant (at best). Jobs are on the whole quite poorly paid. Our house for example is probably worth what we paid (or are still paying) for it.

I can't honestly see a time when we will be mortgage/debt free. We can't downsize much more unless we went into a little flat maybe, which we may have to do at some point, but I would so miss my little garden.

I believe what I hear and learn from economists including the IFS. I also attend various business focus groups. i do not read links on Gransnet as they are ALWAYS biased towards one particular party.

So you will listen to those you believe will already be biased to the point of view you hold but not anything that may offer you information about other views Gillybob. In other words you think you are right and are not prepared to even look at the other side of the argument.

On another thread you said words to the effect of "no one told us it would be so complicated" about Brexit. As you have closed your mind to things you don't already agree with I wonder how likely we would be to hear - should the Labour Party get into government and implement their costed budget "I didn't know this could make the country better off - no one told me"?

Oh for goodness sake GGm2 . What on earth are you on about?

I do not think I am always right. Quite the contrary. Whereas some people.....

The people I attend focus groups with range from wealthy business people, farmers, politicians (labour mainly),land lords, the self employed and every other thing in between. My mind is well and truly open.

The LP run my town. Always have, probably always will. A fine mess they continue to make of it too.

Likewise gilly, ours has been ruined.

It is interesting how the demand for open minds comes from those who are most convinced of the rightness of their own views and the least tolerant of any others.

I always think that any town/ward/area needs political competition to keep it on it's toes. Otherwise like ours they become complacent and need do nothing at all to still get voted in. In my town there is no competition whatsoever. Everyone just seems content to just plod on.

I am utterly fed up with discussion on all these important issues. I just wish the government would come to it's senses and instigate cross party co-operation on all important issues. Projections and plans for the next 10 years would be infinitely better that for the next 5 - as is the norm. As we now have a hung parliament this is the obvious way forward.