Voting quandry

nikki there are some people on GN who try to close conversation down. None of us take any notice of them, as we believe in a free society with freedom of speech.

Ana not sure if that is aimed at me or not, I'm new yes I usually use mumsnet for information, however coming across gransnet and being a new gran I thought I'd try it to find out about Wales as I'm planning a move there in the near future. I came across this post and posted, is there a rule against newbies getting into dialogues until they have proven they're genuine because if there is I've missed it.

Well said, whitewave!

GranVee, I have saud many times why I cannot support Corbyn

fitz but what you can be certain of is that we will have the most right wing government ever.

That the NHS will be privatised, that LA schools will be starved of money because of vanity projects, millions of children go hungry, hedge fund managers stash the cash off shore and the economy will be in peril after the highly likely result of crashing out of Europe.

I prefer Labour or indeed the Liberals , where we stand a chance of having a kinder more inclusive society, where every individual is valued, where we are secure in the knowledge that our NHS and welfare services are also valued. Where Brexit will be negotiated for every individual and not just various factions.

Vote Tory and our beloved country will be unrecognisable by 2022

Why can't you support Corbyn you do not say? I'm sorry but I get so frustrated when people say "I couldn't possibly support Corbyn" but give no reason. The main stream media are so biased against him especially the BBC. Look at his policies and what he stands for. If the Tories get in again you can say goodbye to free healthcare, more privatisation of education etc etc the list goes on. What exactly do you object to, free meals for children, ensuring the big corporations pay the tax, looking after the majority not the wealthy elite? I'm sorry to go on but it just makes me so angry. Teresa May is getting away with so much because she's making it about BREXIT again. She has had not been stopped doing anything in parliament, that's a nonsense. Why aren't more people challenging her on the issues that are important now.

DD i understood you to say that people earning over £150 k pay keep 55% of their earnings above that figure. I simply said it was 53%.
The latest ONS figures show the earnings gap between higher and lower paid is dropping.
Posters seem to think that increasing income tax necessarily increases tax take. That's just not true. Taking money out of the economy can have exactly the opposite effect. Keynes, of course, said that govt. spending can make up for that, but he didn't mean spending on benefits.
I don't pretend to know what the absolutely perfect formula is but I think Labour are less likely to get it right.
In the final analysis we simply may not (pretty much certainly will not) be able to pay for all the things we want, whoever is in power.

I'm sorry you think I'm rude, POGS - it shouldn't be too difficult for you to do your own research on these issues.

You have highlighted a real problem for many voters Marbles, I have come to the conclusion that it is best to vote for what seems right for the circumstances of the moment & sometimes that can mean being out of kilter with ones core beliefs, but better to have an open mind & bend with change than to doggedly beat the same drum .

sluttygran

Certainly not boring or off topic!

Perhaps you could post just a few at a time , on here, as I think PMing is rude when a poster raises a point but closes out other posters from responding to their posts.

POGS
I can send you whole lists if you would like. I don't want to enlarge upon it here because it's boring and off-topic, shall I forward the info to you?
I suspect from your tone that you may be a little 'anti-Corbyn' yourself, so may not welcome reams of referenced transcripts!

For goodness sake, there is PLENTY of evidence of smears. I do not intend to spend time looking for them, because I'm tired and my eyes are dropping, but you must have been asleep or blinkered over the last 18 months if you haven't seen them.

PS.I have absolutely no intention of voting Labour, so I'm impartial, but is so blatantly obvious that the media and certain sections of the LP have had the knives out almost from the moment he was first elected as leader.

Sorry POGS, I asked the same questions

sluttygran, what can you give as an example of faults claimed but no substantive evidence and the evidence he has been the victim of smears ?

Sluttygran and daphnedil

"I have heard much criticism of Jeremy Corbyn, but as an impartial 'floating voter', I have yet to see any substantive evidence that he is guilty of any of the stated faults. There is, however, considerable evidence that he has been subjected to a number of smear campaigns."

What smear campaigns are you thinking of.?

What 'substantive' evidence are you looking for , on what ?

Fitzy

People moving from unemployment to work do not get to keep 53% of what they earn. They lose any benefit they were receiving. They pay 12% NICs, 25% of everything over the tax threshold and possible a further amount if they have a student debt.

I said marginal tax rate.

sluttygran

Fitzy54 NICs are capped. Very rich people don't pay any more than moderately rich people. In any case they find other ways of being paid, such as in dividends or by deferred pension contributions.

If you think people should keep the money they earn, how do you propose paying for schools, the NHS, roads, the police, the army, social care, border control, pensions, administration of elections (this is costing a lot at the moment), etc etc.

As manual tasks become increasingly robotised and there is less need for unskilled people, should we just let unskilled and disabled people die? After all, it doesn't make sense to keep them in a fully "dog eat dog" market economy.There's not a lot of point keeping the very elderly and ill alive either.

The government isn't in the business of making a profit, but redistributing wealth and opportunity for mutual benefit, based on the values a society chooses to adopt. Maybe you'd prefer to live in a third world country, where tax is rarely collected.

'Not voting Labour because you don't like Corbyn is like burning down your house because you don't like the curtains'
Please please please let's get rid of this present conservative administration which has already almost completely sold off our treasured NHS, and let's worry about leadership issues after we have secured this most important asset.
I have heard much criticism of Jeremy Corbyn, but as an impartial 'floating voter', I have yet to see any substantive evidence that he is guilty of any of the stated faults. There is, however, considerable evidence that he has been subjected to a number of smear campaigns.
Whatever you do, vote for what you believe in. Take time to read the party manifestos and don't be afraid to question your local candidates on their intentions. Our votes as women are a very hard-won privilege, so a deliberately spoiled vote is an insult to the brave people who fought for our enfranchisement.

It's difficult but let's be honest. If the Tories get in then the rich will continue to get substantially richer whilst those at the bottom will have their benefits cut even for those struggling in low paid work. But, the most terrifying thing of all is that the Tories will almost certainly destroy our precious NHS whilst we will have to sit and watch it sold off to private investors to make massive profit.

Lewlew I'm all for chasing people to pay the tax they owe.

Fitzy54 Tue 25-Apr-17 18:49:48 The amt of revenues taken from the higher tax brackets is less in proportion to that of lower tax brackets. I pasted some bits below, but it's worth reading the article at the link in whole. This is not a Corbyn thing only, other politicians have talked about this for years. Naturally it was not an Osborne/Cameron priority. I hope better from May if she wants the middle income people's support. It's time to do something!

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hmrc-tax-richest-high-net-worth-unit-public-accounts-committee-mps-a7547596.html

A new investigation by the cross-party committee found that the tax take from very wealthy people had fallen by £1 billion since HMRC set up a dedicated “high net worth” unit to chase unpaid or missing tax from the rich.

Meanwhile the income tax paid by all other taxpayers has risen by £23 billion over the same period.

“HMRC's claims about the success of its strategy to deal with the very wealthy just don't stack up,” Meg Hillier, the MP who chairs the Public Accounts Committee said.

“The tax take for this group of people has fallen by £1 billion since HMRC set up its dedicated unit. At the same time, income tax paid by everyone else has risen by £23 billion.”

The committee’s investigation report says that HMRC’ has eroded public trust in the tax system with a “lack of transparency” and that the treatment of the richest could be “cosy”.

DD NICs are payable at 2% for all the earnings of the people you mention so they get to keep 53% of some of what they earn. And to be honest I think it's ok that people keep more of their own money than is taken in income tax. Of course they pay other taxes as well.

Caretaker I do think we should pay more tax, but you can bet that it won't be those most able to pay who will be taxed more.

DD taxing and borrowing are not just alright, they are absolutely essential. The issue is how much of each and what you do with the money. To my mind Labour are looking dangerously profligate.