Should parents take their children on holiday in term time?

As I said in an earlier post NfkDumpling a family "holiday" does not always mean an expensive trip to Centreparcs or lying on beach in Spain. It can mean just a few days of quality time spent together as a family which sadly many children do not experience very often. A little "sleep in", a family breakfast, a BBQ in their own garden, a walk to the park, a visit to the local museum etc. All good quality family time.

My DGC are sometimes late for school NfkDumpling. They live miles away and lost appeals to get into a school closer to home. With the exception of Tuesdays and two weeks in every 4, they are forced to take 2 buses across town leaving the house at stupid o'clock. The first bus is often late (as it covers a long, rural route) meaning they miss the connection and are late for school. My DS and DDiL received a very nasty, threatening letter from the school attendance officer "warning" them of the consequences. I was FURIOUS and rang them only to be filled with the biggest load of cr*p you have ever heard including "they should get an earlier bus then" doesn't begin to cover it !

They are not marked absent but they are marked late and every lateness is reported to the Attendance Officers in the same way a child who does not attend at all. They refuse to take any reasons into consideration.

But Gilly that is the logical conclusion. The majority of parents should not expect to be able to take their children away on holiday.

Have you seen the mark up on a Centreparcs break? How do they afford it?

And mine was just being silly. This latest ruling has taken away all common sense or leeway. And I really couldn't believe it when I heard that a child late for school would be marked as absent. That's not true - is it?

The trouble is parents today are far too rich. Expecting to go away in the summer holidays is something they should give up while parenting

Speak for the parents you know NfkDumpling

Oooops meant to say my first paragraph was to Elegran

and my second to Anya

The trouble is parents today are far too rich. Expecting to go away in the summer holidays is something they should give up while parenting. Sitting in all those traffic jams caused by everyone heading off at the same time is far too polluting and should be stopped anyway.

Think of the advantages. If each parent takes their holiday separately they would have enough to cover childcare without having to resort to the struggle of finding a place on a play scheme and they may even have a few days left over to take together since they'll not be taking so much time off to look after a child with a cold or sickie tum. (Can't loose the attendance record.) A trip to the local park or cinema should be enough of a treat. Yep, only those who can afford private education or home schooling should be allowed to go away on a family holiday. Just like in the old days.

I can only speak for the one school I know and that is my DGC's primary where very few children request time off during term time. Probably because most of the poor kids in my DGC's school wouldn't know what a "holiday" looked like at any time, term or otherwise. I think the system worked well when HT's had the final say. Now its all over the place with many refusing point blank with fines happily dished out (but the money doesn't go back to the school ) and others (in the same area) where HT's use their common sense and providing the request is not at a crucial time (just before exams etc.) and the child has a good attendance record then they are perfectly fine.

Many parents(such as my DS and DDiL)work normal jobs. You know those kind where you might start at 8 and finish at 4.30-5 ? or in the case of my DiL shifts like 6-2, 2-10 and night shift. Neither can just slip out of work "willy nilly". My DGC's school has appointments from 4.30 until 6pm and it is very rare that the days fall on the right shift patters for DDiL. Because of this, I tend to do a lot of the parents evenings, concerts and various other school events but it's not fair to assume that because I go (in place of a parent) that the parents don't care or can't be bothered when the exact opposite is the case.

Parents evenings are usually organised by timed appointments, so parents who can't get there earlier take the later times. These events start at 4 or 5 pm because the teachers are on the spot at that time, and if they went home it is quite likely that they couldn't get back by or 7 or 8 pm, or fit in the interviews with all the parents during the evening. They have already been speaking to children for eight hours or so, and believe me, after several hours more speaking to parents with no more sustenance than a grabbed sandwich, a late night is the last thing they need.

"more time to plan and mark, without the distraction of having to teach" You could put that the other way round - more time to teach without the distraction of planning and marking - as Gilly says "isn't "teaching" what "teachers" are paid to do?". Neither of them can be done at the same time time as the other, so the planning and marking are done at home or in the holidays, in all that "spare time" that teachers don't, after all, have.

But, to gilly again " a class full of children all taking "their week" at a different time. Imagine trying to keep up to date with the curriculum?" is exactly why parents are discouraged from taking their children away during the term.

Sounded like it to me and as a 'former governor' (aren't we all? ) you should have worded your post more diplomatically then.

I don't think anyone is "bashing" class teachers. I just suggest that those who do organise these events consider the effect on parents and the bad effect on parent/school relationships.

As a former governor of a comprehensive school, I do realise that some things can, and should be changed. A school and its pupils are more likely to thrive if the relationship between parents and teachers is nurtured.

And 'off on a training course' is 90% of the time held in school while teachers are drilled in the latest government directive they have chosen to foist on schools, an alteration to the curriculum, exams or some other idiot notion the powers that be want implemented.

And let's not inconvenience the parents by asking them to come into school to be given an account of their child's progress

Class teachers don't organise these events. Give up bashing them!

"Inset days" where children are told not to come to school because their teacher is off on a training course, causes a lot of disruption and inconvenience to families, and some resentment towards teachers who have two or three times as much holiday in the year as the parents. I believe it would be better to arrange teachers' in service training at the beginning or end of the long summer holidays.

Another inconvenience to parents are "evening" meetings or parents' evenings which start at 4 - 5pm. For most working parents the evening starts after they have got home from work, cooked, fed the children, etc - ie the evening might start at say 7- 8pm at the earliest, but teachers seem to regard the evening as meaning any time after school finishes in the afternoon. This gives parents the quite wrong impression that teachers have an easy job with short hours and have no appreciation of the lives of other people.

Here in Ireland, taking term time holidays is allowed, although permission is usually sought from the HT in advance.
However, in our local school, plenty of parents of primary aged children think nothing of removing them for a day out on a whim, if the weather's nice or it's their birthday, which I do find a bit ridiculous. One of the mums was having a moan to me about receiving a letter advising her that they must improve the attendance rate for her 2 sons. She's a bit bohemian and keeps them at home when she feels like it. I told her that I agreed with the school that regular attendance is important and it will impact badly on their education longer term if they have too many days off. (!)

What I find incredibly difficult is the shorter days and longer holidays they have although they are given a lot of homework (to my mind). My 8 yr old DS school starts at 9.20, finishes at 3pm and he has 10 weeks off in the summer. Luckily ckily, I don't work but a lot of parents rely n extended family for childcare as there's little in the way of holiday clubs or after school clubs here.
The secondary school has more than 12 weeks summer hols. They still have the usual 2 weeks Xmas and Easter and half terms too!!
My DS has about 40 mins of homework every day from when he started school, aged 5. I don't recall having homework when I went to primary school, but maybe things have changed in the UK?

I don't know anyone in the private sector, who get more than 28 days holiday per year, including the statutory bank holidays. My sister works for the nhs and gets 33 days inc 8 statutory.

I'm suggesting that teachers could have more time to plan and mark, without the distraction of having to teach

Admittedly I am not the brightest button in the button box, but isn't "teaching" what "teachers" are paid to do?

It's like a bus driver saying I could do this job so much better if I didn't have to pick any passengers up!

No, of course I'm not!

I'm suggesting that teachers could have more time to plan and mark, without the distraction of having to teach. They wouldn't have the extra holidays, only the pupils.

PS. Most people I know get 4-5 weeks holiday PLUS bank holidays (8 days?). Bank Holidays are part of a teacher's 13 weeks holidays.

Add an extra hour to the school day and have an extra seven weeks holiday, which is what some independent schools do. The problem then would be that parents would complain about having to fund an extra seven weeks of childcare.

Too right they would daphnedill Trying to cover 13 weeks holiday for normal working parents is difficult enough given that most working people only get 4-5 weeks holiday per year.

Are you seriously suggesting that teachers should have 20 weeks holiday per year? its such a pity they have to go to work at all

I think even more teachers would leave, if they only had six weeks holiday! These days, some employees have more than six weeks holiday, if you add up annual leave entitlement and bank holidays.

Who would supervise the non-academic activities, if not teachers?

When I was teaching, I spent at least half of my holidays planning and marking. It can't just be abandoned. It's an essential part of the job and isn't like overtime. I doubt very much if the work could be done during term-time, unless the teacher is prepared to forgo any time with family.

Sorry, but I don't think it would work.

The opposite would be better. Add an extra hour to the school day and have an extra seven weeks holiday, which is what some independent schools do. The problem then would be that parents would complain about having to fund an extra seven weeks of childcare.

This could never work GGM2

Holiday time both for students and staff to be reduced to six weeks

can you see any teachers agreeing to this? 13 weeks reduced to 7. I don't think so.

There would be the equivalent of industry shut-downs for: two weeks at Christmas, one week at Easter, two weeks in the Summer

and unless you were a teacher how would that benefit parents working in jobs where they have no choice when to take their (often meagre) holidays? Also the holiday companies would rub their hands together for those weeks pushing the prices up even higher.

One week could be taken at any time other than those exempted by the head teacher

This could result in a class full of children all taking "their week" at a different time. Imagine trying to keep up to date with the curriculum?

I did mention that I believe the set-up in schools should be changed and I wonder what you feel about my initial suggestions.

1. Holiday time both for students and staff to be reduced to six weeks. There should be no idea that teachers are expected to work in schools/colleges during this time.
2. There would be the equivalent of industry shut-downs for: two weeks at Christmas, one week at Easter, two weeks in the Summer.
3. One week could be taken at any time other than those exempted by the head teacher - these being different for different years where necessary.

The day should be the equivalent to a working day with children arriving and taking part in non-academic activity. This would not include the academic staff who would have this time for preparation/marking.

The middle of the day would be teaching time. In secondary schools the subject/stage of learning could be introduced in lectures to the whole year and then smaller sets used to enable all levels of learning.

The last part of the day would not be academic and not include academic teachers in supervision or teaching but would be additional time for preparation/marking/training.

Those are my first thoughts but someone, somewhere needs to change the school year from one that was set up to allow children to help with the harvest. Time is too expensive now to treat it in the way that we do and teachers are leaving in increasing numbers because of the pressure put on them.

It used to work perfectly well when it was at the Head Teacher's discretion.

When our kids were in school, a long, long, time ago now, my husband and I worked for the same firm, and holidays were staggered. It was difficult enough managing to get the same holiday dates each, so most years we took the kids out of school for 2 weeks per year, which at the time was allowed, as long as the school had prior knowledge in plenty of time. We obviously didn`t take them out at exam times.

DH and I had no choice as he taught so hols during school hols only for us. DD1 is self employed and has taken family away end of term-when she could get a locum-with HT's blessing.
What about all the time wasted at school on so called "activities" days/weeks? Our local senior school has a week a year, costs a fortune in outings to local theme parks of all places. Children who can't pay just kick their heels at school.Double standards methinks.