Should parents take their children on holiday in term time?

And many old people just want to go back to 1957 Iam. I was not dismissing collective experience. Many does not mean all.

"Many old people" are highly experienced in their particular area of work. A few of them will be negative about change and probably always have been. However, to dismiss collective experience can lead to the wheel being re-invented, time and time again.

Like most people I imagine my experience is fairly narrow. Limited to some work in education, (not as a teacher); relatives who are currently in education - teachers, lecturers and an odd Professor. Input into my knowledge also comes from other countries where family now live; I was on the receiving end years ago and had a deep interest when my children were young and now my GSs are.

Teachers are used to what they learned to do and what is current (although they, probably justifiably, whinge a lot about what is current). Not many have extensive comparative experience Elegran but many have just the same interest as the rest of us.

I think it would be unlikely that a manager would be trusted to put a company to rights, but I would have been interested in their ideas and input - bar the whinging of course - and I feel that teachers can offer just the same, should they choose to do so. If they don't life will move on and we will just hear more of the "in my day" comments we currently get from many old people.

suzied I think this is the whole set: "I suppose it depends on whether you see the function of schools as educational or child minding."

Precisely that. I would want all children to enjoy school - to be educated happy adults.

When our boys were at school the rule was an additional 10 days per academic year, over and above allocated school holidays. On two separate occasions we took them out of school for one week each time for a family holiday when they were at primary school.

I agree that the blanket ban is wrong and that discretion should be used taking into account the child's overall attendance record. I'm just relieved that we don't have children of school age anymore, as a responsible parent to say I'd beif I needed to get permission to take my children out of school, never mind being told what I could and could not put in their packed lunches, would be an understatement.

Sorry Norah

I missed a word out in the previous post, it should read "to think about it and understand better"

If someone doesn't catch some point in the lecture, and they ask for it to be clarified, does the lecturer stop and explain it in more detail there and then, and ask questions that guide the pupil (and the rest of the class) to think about it understand better, or is it left to the pupil to remember to ask about it in "tutor group"? If they stop and explain, then the lecture is interrupted and becomes a lesson, and the "tutor group" is redundant. If they don't, but carry on as planned, that pupil won't understand what follows and will be left behind - and will stop listening.

Where would the next lecture start from, if some pupils needed more time to absorb all of the first? The lecturer doesn't know who is ready for the next step and who is not, and neither does the "tutor" unless he/she has been at the lecture and noticed the blank incomprehension on certain faces.

It sounds as though your experience of education is from the "consumer" side, gg2, and that you were one of the more intellectual pupils who went on to university and the lecture system? Lectures by one person to a large number of pupils who are not taking notes and of whom a fair proportion are not even following what is being said don't produce a lasting effect. A lecturer cannot keep a beady eye on those whose minds, even if their eyes appear to be looking in the right direction, are on non-intellectual matters.

I'm afraid your comment that I don't like change annoys me bit. As a teacher, I was always thinking up "bright" ideas which didn't turn out to be so bright after all.

Teachers don't take homework classes at the end of the day in most schools. The idea of lectures is a total non-starter in some subjects such as foreign languages. After just a few months of learning a language there is already a very wide attainment gap. Teaching a whole year group together would hold the best back and frustrate those with difficulties. By the age of 11, there is a seven year gap between the best and least able in English and maths.

I used to do timetabling and I can see the problems through a timetabler's eyes.

It's disappointing to see such an ageist attitude towards more experienced teachers. Unfortunately, schools are often run by inexperienced people with bright ideas, who don't actually realise that they're re-inventing the wheel. That's why so many teachers in their fifties (especially females) are "let go".

I think you are perhaps enured by your experience daphne. Many teachers don't want change and I can understand that because schools, in my experience, are some of the worst places when it come to introducing it. However, change can happen and must so that we can move forward. All you are offering is a negative response. We need to have more use made of technology and online learning too so that we can call upon the best in their subject.

I don't see why a teacher, for example, needs to take a homework class at the end of the day. You do not need teachers carrying out the pastoral side of schools and schools have, in my experience, already changed to none teaching staff in some areas. Teachers need to be marking and preparing in this time. With the sort of day I propose, with teaching at the core, some flexible working is possible for teachers.

You may believe the beginning of a new stage cannot be done in lecture form with the use of teachers being much more one to one following up but I don't think it is impossible if the will is there. I really don't believe if we came back in 100 years schools would look the same as they do now any more than they looked the same 100 years ago. We have to find some way to move forward rather than resisting every step of the way. What tends to happen is they younger workers (in any industry) know what is currently happening as normal and ignore, to a great extent, the complaints of the old that it 'isn't what it used to be'. They take if forward generation by generation but someone has to think outside the 'what it used to be' area.

I suppose it depends on whether you see the function of schools as educational or child minding . Teachers would prefer the educational function to be prioritised, whereas some parents think schools should be available for long hours of child care to fit in with their work patterns. Many schools do operate a longer day, with outside bodies running before- and after-school activities which the parents pay for. My GC go to after school club on 2 days a week to fit in with their parents' shifts. They quite enjoy it but wouldn't want to go every day, plus it's quite expensive. With budget cuts, and the shortage of teachers becoming more critical in many areas, it is likely some schools will have to shorten their hours of teaching, with pupils being sent home early , more subjects being cut etc. Many school are struggling to recruit teachers, I have heard of schools advertising nationally and receiving no applications for jobs such as Head of English, and having to recruit from overseas. It's not a rosy picture.

Sorry to put a dampener on your ideas.

Gg It might work in a very small primary school, but the logistics in a secondary would be a nightmare. The cost of double staffing would be astronomical. Schools are already facing cuts which mean some subjects with small option groups can't be run.

The idea of lectures the going into groups wouldn't work either. Firstly, there would have to be five spaces in the school able to accommodate 200-300 pupils at a time and then there would be the problem of movement round the school every half an hour or so. Most misbehaviour happens during these movement times and most schools try to minimise them.

Thirdly, the pedagogy itself wouldn't work. Teenagers learn least effectively when just listening. Even if there is only one lecturer, there would have to be minimum adult supervision. Each lesson should follow on from the last. That can't happen if the whole year group is brought back to the same place at the beginning of every session.

The standard school timetable lasts 25 hours a week. Some academies have a longer school day, because it's already difficult enough to fit in all academic subjects. Non-academic subjects in a secondary school are a recipe for disruption, because pupils don't think they matter, which is why they've been cut.

gillybob I know this is off-topic, but:

If the school is the nearest with places
AND
Is more than three miles away,

the local authority is breaking the law.

You really must contact the Local Government Ombudsman urgently.

This isn't fair on your grandchildren, who have an unnecessarily stressful journey and are being marked as late/absent. This will stay on their school records.

Jalima1108 I admitted that I didn't understand. I do know people work.

I merely thought everybody (mums, dads, children) ate breakfast before they left for school. I assumed, wrongly it seems, that someone made breakfast, then the children went on to school (like gillybob said happens at her home some mornings, when the GC are with her).

But should they be daphne? We seem to be accepting far too much of 'money not available' message.

Eventually it teaching the 'clock' will be more of a historical lesson gillybob - like learning about sundials. Many people do not wear a watch these days unless it is as an item of jewellery.

There is a pop up keep appearing on my screen for teachers absence insurance. Weird cookies.

Me neither daphnedill it is quite clear that they should, given the distance the children have to travel to school. I have pointed this out to the LEA (transport team) who insist it is only children with special needs which is not the case. I have downloaded (and provided copies) of guidelines from HM. Gov too.

Apparently the eldest (aged 11) could fly to school across half a dozen farmers fields and a fast flowing stream.

gillybob I still don't ubderstand why the local authority isn't providing transport.

Thanks for the reply Gracesgran. I'm more familiar with secondary schools and the bof hours for "non-academic" lessons is now virtually nil.

I have never claimed to be "good at sarcasm* gg2 . It is after all the lowest form of wit.

Actually no, time is not covered until year 1 (basic o'clock) which quite surprised me and more comprehensively in year 2. My DGS (year 2 ) is doing it now, although he is already very good at it. Home taught. Apparently (according to his teacher) many children do not have standard clocks at home.

Of course there is someone at home with the children at breakfast time Norah (I didn't think for one minute you were picking on me ) and you are NOT STUPID

There are 3 of us doing the school runs depending on my DDiL' s work pattern The children stay at mine alternative Sunday's and every Monday night which is a lot easier but we all get a bit confused and it's like running a military operation sometimes.

You have to be good a sarcasm to make it work gillybob.

Schools have holidays which does not mean the teachers have all of them. They do not work 25 hours a day - I think you learn about time in Reception class - you obviously missed that bit. I do appreciate that you have to be able to cognisant to understand that teachers may be working when you can't see them and I can't help if you can't imagine that. This may just help - or not

Lots of mums go to work Norah as well as dads these days! Or many are single parent families.
My DGD go to breakfast club because their Mummy has to get to the school where she works in good time for other people's children.