The art of persuasion

What an excellent topic, Elegran. Thank you. I think much of the problem lies with the written word in that it comes over so literally whereas in company it is 'softened' with a wry smile or a gesture like a wink or a shrug. I seriously enjoy GN but I simply disappear, albeit frustratedly, when the vitriol starts. I try again the following day, of course. Simply no space for aggression in my life. No sirree...... I am seriously impressed by the knowledge and depth of experiences shared here from time to time. So, if some of us could just 'keep a lid on it', many of us could indulge and enjoy from beginning to end. Certainly disagree but inform and convince to the extent of potential conversion. Happy days and many thanks to all rational contributors.

I have thought about the OP since it appeared as I have absolutely no wish to be unkind. I think this works well in face to face encounters and certainly, as the video described, in the workplace where such differences of opinion really should not be aired, but I am not at all sure it works on the internet.

We are being asked to use 'emotional correctness' instead of logic not instead of political correctness. Political correctness is almost always unhelpful but those who emote instead of thinking things through just because they believe they are right are no doubt people you just would not discuss the subject of that emotion with in real life; you would avoid it.

Those who just emote are like small children throwing their toys out of the pram. They do not believe in knowledge, experts or anything outside the sphere of their own emotion - often referred to as an opinion although it is not an informed opinion - you could discuss that - but more a pattern of behaviour. When all else fails they start calling the person not the point in question - again rather puerile. I have every confidence that such people are not JUST childish but we don't get to see that on a discussion on here.

We are now seeing this in the current 18 - 25 year olds who are insisting on safe spaces where others may not speak least they be offended. The do not discuss they exclude and, although I am happy to be pleasant and to try to understand their point of view they so often don't have one - just a reaction.

My view doesn't solve anything but I don't believe that expressed in the OP does either, except to have a pleasant working place and I think that happens anyway.

I think being sarcastic comes across very harshly as you can't see the face of the person saying it. I always make my point and never refer to anyone and then get a barrage often and go offline. It's hurtful.

I don't think anyone is being asked to emote all over the place - in my opinion that is a very bad way of approaching any problem. It obscures the issues involved in a blinding rush of suffocating and paralysing intoxication by the hormones released.

However, discussion and debate are NOT furthered by throwing shit and derision over those who don't agree. Mentally shifting a point of view to see the argument from where the other person is standing, and see what their emotional approach is as well as their logical one, then pointing out the similarities as well as the differences, can clarify the places where a bit of closer inspection might possibly result it a shift by them too.

Some could take you use of 'liberal parenting' as judgemental Lilyflower, I was a 'liberal' parent as our my children now - I'd even say that my parents were although no such labels applied in the 50s. My sisters and I were raised to be well mannered and thoughtful people, as were our children, and I see the same in our wonderful grandchildren, great nieces and nephews.
Sensitivity to the world around us, empathy and a generosity of spirit is what I celebrate in them all.

In actual fact, what is behind a lot of the abuse and adversarial exchanges is that someone IS reacting by emoting all over the place, and apportioning blame and opprobrium according to their own hobby horses.

Our new instant communication and knowledge systems bring so much more to our notice. For anyone who thinks all this is new then you've missed a lot in the past. It has always been like that in politics but unless you went to political meetings you never heard about it or a local hack managed to get it into the national papers.

I don't think anyone is being asked to emote all over the place

I don't think that was what I said Elegran rather that this is what the people who don't like logical argument are often doing. You seem to have read it backwards

I don't mind trying to see a point of view, in fact I love to learn more, but on line people often don't offer anything other than an emotion - no logic or knowledge is offered and if you ask an attempt is made to just shout you down; just a lot of 'I feel this therefore you must accept it'.

Presenting a little logic or knowledge goes a long way but then you must be prepared for others to challenge this but this seems to say (yet again) that we may not challenge in this way. That - as in my example of safe space - is what seems to be happening more and more. Even on here we have had a request for 'special' threads.

Perhaps the first step is for people to understand why they feel emotionally that they are right and to try and explain that rather than expecting everyone else to bow to the snowflakes in our midst.

There used to be middle class rues such as 'no politics or religion at the table' which could be usefully reinstated.

Well that would have meant our table would have been silent from my childhood . Rules, how some people like to impose rules on others.

I believe my parents - my father in particular - and then I hope I did - taught me and my brother and then our children to actually understand when it was acceptable to talk about anything, not just politics and religion but that means teaching people how to listen and think not just how to obey rules. However, I really don't have any say (nor would I want to) in how you run your home - I just don't think anyone should be telling others how to run theirs

As a 'rule' it seems to have little to do with a forum on which debate, including about politics and religion, is encouraged.

I think the "rule" of no politics or religion being discussed at table came about because so few people could discuss these subjects without resorting to shouting, quarrelling or even fighting - none of which is good for the digestion!

As I posted before I had some very interesting discussions with someone I met on holiday whose views were totally opposite to mine - these included religion and politics and yes we did discuss them over dinner. The difference was that we both acted like adults and listened to each others views explaining why we each disagreed, or on some occasions agreed. Isn't that what discussion should be all about - not resorting to insults which smacks of a child throwing its toys out of the pram in a tantrum! (No I am not directing that comment to anyone - it is just my opinion)

GG2 We are not being asked - as it seems you have taken out of the video clip in my link - "to use emotional correctness instead of logic" but to use it as well as logic, and to apply the logic in a way that will get through to the other person and make sense to them.

Too many "debates" or discussions don't do this, they try to force the square peg who is arguing with them into a round hole, and then berate them for their obstinacy in not fitting. The result is most often to confirm them in the certainty that the round hole is all wrong, and their square profile is the right one.

The internet is NOT either a workplace (where people on the whole do as they are instructed, with varying degrees of good grace according to their assessment of whether it is reasonable) or a political debating chamber where professional heavyweight wranglers beat the hell out of each others' proposals for running the country. A social netweork like Gransnet is the equivalent of chatting to personal friends.

I am about to watch the video clip again, to take some quotes from the transcription. Back later.

So am I Stansgran. What's a Kipper?

Kipper - a whole herring, a small, oily fish, that has been split into a butterfly fashion from tail to head along the dorsal ridge, gutted, salted or pickled, and cold-smoked over smouldering woodchips (typically oak).

U-kipper - a political party of small, oily, fishy MPs and their voters, that should be split into a butterfly fashion from tail to head along the dorsal ridge, gutted, salted or pickled, and cold-smoked over smouldering woodchips (typically oak).

Sorry for the inaccuracy in the above - it should read "a member of a political party" etc.

Elegran, haven't you just gone against the whole ethos of this thread?

No, dj I haven't ranted at or abused anyone. I posted a humorous answer to a question, in the vain hope that it would keep the discussion light.

Insulting UKippers?
Leave you to it.
Who decides what's light or not?

I found it light and entertaining to see Elegran's explanation of the difference between a Kipper and a Ukipper.

I haven't watched the video clips yet (extremely busy day) but I'd read that 'emotional intelligence' was to be recommended over 'political correctness'. I always disliked the phrase pc, because I felt it was usually used in a derogatory fashion, to criticise people who sought to analyse issues and try to avoid offending folks. I can see though, it serves some purpose. I still prefer the idea of EI.

Well I thought it was funny , and not directed at anyone in particular!

That's the first rule, then. You're allowed to be rude about U-Kippers because they are nobody in particular.

Oh my goodness, is there no escape from the aggressive rudeness of Durhamjen? My theory is that she is missing essential nutrients in her diet. Elegran, just ignore her and we can all hope that she goes away!

I don't think we should say that to anyone Esoee. Not very in the spirit of the OP is it?

... and so it continues with Esspee deliberately making something out of Jen's post that wasn't there and then being personal in a derogatory way while, it appears, feeling very superior.

I am sorry Elegran but I think you are on a hiding to nothing.

Unfortunately Durhamjen seems to have spent today being obnoxious to everyone (on multiple threads). Elegran did not deserve the sniping.

You must be new, Esspee. We're all used to it by now...