Article 50 trigger 29th March

Life is all changes, other than that we are dead. I can't understand all the melodramatics about Bexit. Lots of people wanted to leave and voted for that. The rest of the EU is in an appalling state of flux and we were no more secure with remain than we are with Brexit. Life is about keeping pace with change.

We have been comfortable without war that affected us here, but we are also happy to persue proxy wars all over the place, selling arms to keep us rich, having goods and services supplied by modern slaves, using resources at a much faster rate than other people do.

The EU was designed by bank for banks, it collects taxes and keeps the money within its own banking systems........who is really better off? Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece are all but bankrupt we are in debt as a nation to the tune of trillions, how are we better off?

The EU wants a single army, single taxation and benefits system while increasing in size taking on millions of poor people, how will that work over time? We would just have to fork out whatever they demanded.

I don't think we will get everything we hoped for, but we have time to avoid the worse things coming along, for that we need to be grateful and start seeing the benefits.

Seems to me that people who like to be under a paternalistic regime are afraid of change, but change is life, if we have that new oil field that is something to help us that we were not aware of when we voted, CHANGE happens all the time, you cannot keep harping back onto what you see as security and cling to it like a comfort blanket. Germany has not paid its way in NATO and yet wants an EU army.......we seem to be subject to what they want most of the time. There is always something else coming along.

We are the second biggest contributer of funds and when Cameron went to seek some alterations, they told him to F off and wonder why we want to leave.

The world when we went in, was far 'bigger' than it is now we have the internet and cheap flights, I do wish people would stop moaning and start seeing the huge potential for us leading the world in creativity again (as we have historically) we have what it takes to succeed and why not be like Switzerland and just not be in the wars that happen???

We certainly have enough people here from everywhere not to be insular. It is about time the banks came under the same scrutiny that the EU has, people ought to be marching aginst them and the wealth extraction they practice and yet, we seem to be wailing about things that we accept in a childlike way as 'good for us'.

It never hurts to have a rigorous re examination of systems in power. It may be tough going who knows but it is about change and while that may be uncomfortable it is just the way life is.

Disclaimer - Being passionate does not of course e cause real abuse - in the street or online it could be frightening but I think the word is used a bit loosely quite frankly. Robustly disagreeing with someone is not abuse.

Really WW - quote your source for that observation please?

Brilliant post radicalnan,it reflects absolutely how I and my family feel. Nothing to do with racism, homo or any other phobia, just belief in this country and deep scepticism of the EU for the reasons you articulate so well.

I am not sure that I subscribe to the idea of being a "world power" - I can't really see any point in that.

The EU is hugely flawed - we had the choice to go it alone or stick with this flawed organisation with its federalist aims. A tiny majority felt we needed to be outside the EU, but continue as colleagues and friends. So there it is.

If the British government seems not to be going about it the right way we have our own democratic system and can make our voices heard via out MPs, petitions etc. But it will be our MPs who we approach, who nominally have some power to represent us.

Change is always disturbing.

Homophobia? How did that get into the EU debate niggly (and ever so sorry dear for not leaving as you do nicely suggested I should do)

Yes Lucky change and uncertainty is always disturbing and unsettling. It helps if you have confidence in your leaders I guess

I too am proud to be British, and voted remain. The country I love (loved?) was tolerant and fair not bigoted and anti immigrants. Why do brexiteers think they are the only ones to love their country? I dont line what the country is now becoming I'm afraid. I really hope my fears are unjustified and that life post Brexit is as good as before.

Last Saturday's march in London was a very patriotic display of the best of British - peaceful and positive.

Although Jeremy Corbyn does not talk about patriotism, Tim Farron does and I think it is time for those of us who believe in an open, fair and tolerant Britain to speak up and support the Liberal Democrats.

One needs to think about our government and how lacking they have been. Hiding behind the EU. Looking back our politicians have been young career politicians working for the EU looking forward to their next job in the EU with power and a pension. On the EUs watch. Globalisation has decimated wages and working conditions. Training places for professionals have been cut to the bone. Much cheaper to get overseas doctors etc. Letting our young down. Tech. Colleges for skills down graded. Now we will be able to vote them out until we get a government with a vision. DC stood outside the EU commission in Bussels and started to say . It's been great working , for and changed it to with the EU. Light bulb moment. Not working for the people here. How can you let so few people, control of so many. They move offices at millions a year. No thought for the hard working tax payers of Europe. Do you really think they care about us? Not to say we don't need a good relationship but we don't have to be so intertwined, do we? Economics works by us selling our talents and resources to the rest of the world and supplying ourselves and not importing so much. How can the EU rationing help us? They set our VAT , it's 20 percent. Far too high. Next they will be taxing us at source. You will have no rights to vote them out. They want a federal Europe. We have been decreasing our army in anticipation of a Europeans army. Now on both sides there is supposition but on the commission walls there is a poster saying nation states are evil. I find most most immigrants refer to their birth land as home even if they are totally integrated. When the chips are down that where their support will be. I have had during my life time many foreign friends. My best friend is polish Jewish. So no racism here but we want to keep our standard, the freedoms we have fought for and our tolerance but not be walked over . Just saying.

Well Lyndie you might be just saying but you could try and get your facts right before you do - the EU do not set our VAT. The individual countries decide the actual rate ( varies between15% and 27% at the moment I believe). - just as the individual countries decide most things not that you'd know by talking to tge average Brexiteer

You can just see what newspapers people read from the facts they fling about, eg VAT being set by the EU. The same newspaper which bizarrely headlined yesterday as 'Freedom'??

Err, I've never felt freer than in the last 40 years and now I feel somewhat constrained by the revisions that will take place under the Great Reform Bill. Given the measures that our sovreign government have put in place over the last seven years, I don't hold out much hope for employment rights, workers' rights, the environment, ability to travel with ease, the welfare state or the NHS. Oh I forgot, I won't see so many foreigners here....oops there seems to be a problem with that one.

To quote a newspaper that I guess most on GN would hate:

In the YouGov poll this week, 65% of young people aged 18-24 say it was wrong to vote leave, against just 12% who think it was right. At the other end of the age spectrum, the over-65s say the opposite, with 62% saying it was right to leave and 31% saying it was wrong.

this (Brexit) isn’t really “this generation’s chance”. In fact it’s the older generation’s chance to break a relationship with Europe that the younger generation wants to keep. Looking backwards has defeated looking forwards – or has until the leave voters die out and, perhaps, leave the new majority more pro-European. At the end of her speech May invoked a misty-eyed vision of “a stronger, fairer, better Britain – a Britain our children and grandchildren are proud to call home”. The problem, though, is that leaving the EU isn’t going to produce that kind of Britain. As the historian Anthony Barnett put it: “Brexit is government of the old, by the old, for the old.”

Well, I suppose this is GRANSNET. And btw, I laughed when I saw someone heralding a new oilfield. Yep, just what the world needs, keeps the old folks in cheap petrol.

Brilliant post Lyndie and absolutely reflects my own thoughts.

What??? Most on GN absolutely worship the Guardian!

azie yes saw that and couldn't agree more, the young must feel so angry and frustrated by the elderly betrayal.

Great posts radicalnan and Lyndie

azie perhaps a lot of the older generation know a thing or two more than the younger ones.

Betrayal...? What the ----!
They had a vote, we had a vote, perhaps more of them should have bothered to go and use it.

I took part in that YouGov poll Azie09 and was shocked when I saw the result analysed by age. (I'm a remainer and over 65) it seems that the younger generation's views (under 50) have been sidelined.

No they haven't been sidelined they could all have voted had they wanted to.For the ones who did bother to vote and voted Remain, they have to get used to the fact that a majority always wins out in any referendum/election.

No they haven't. It's just the way the voting went - if indeed they did use their vote!

It's the younger generation who will be affected more by Brexit though. Under 18s couldn't vote for the future of their country. If they had been able to vote the result might have been different.

Er * niggly* you think the EU sets the VAT rate? And that was only one of the things she got wrong. ( oh snd sorry again I'm still here)

I expect this is an amazing example of what roses calls the older generation knowing a thing or two more than the younger ones Azie am loving your posts - are you new - you are very welcome. You will have noticed that there are political differences on GN. There are the well informed posters who often read the Guardian and are more likely than not left of centre and then there are those that think the EU set the VAT rate

Ginny42 You say that your main reason for voting was so that there will be no war in Europe which I am sure everyone who isn't a psychopath would also want.
In that time we have bombed Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and the Yemen. We have also been involved in some unpleasant business in Pakistan.
I don't see the fact that we don't bomb France but join with them in bombing others as much of a comfort.
Why don't the children of Yemen matter as much as the children of Europe.
We can either say that we don't get involved in wars unless it absolutely cannot be avoided or in unusual situation like Sierra Leone where the government there asked our soldiers for help after they had arrived to evacuate Brits, or we do and at present we do. The fact that they are outside the EU and therefore less of a problem is just prejudice.

Research has shown that approximately the same percentage of 18-35s as over 65s voted. However, there are more over 65s. People between 36 and 64 voted approximately 50/50 with a tiny majority for Leave.

It's interesting to note that the majority of working people voted Remain, whereas the majority of non-working people (pensioners and unemployed, etc) voted Leave.

As one Conservative columnist puts it:

The vote to leave looks awfully like a revolt of the "tax eaters" against the "tax payers"

He then backs this up with a graph, which shows that the median income of Remainers is higher than Leavers.

There are other charts and statistics which confirm this.

So...we have a Conservative government backing people who contribute least to the economy. Hmmm! Well, this is going to be interesting.