Lords revolting about Brexit

Of course you may do that Welshwife... a free country and all that, but Cinders seems to be hoping for some sort of last minute reprieve, which ain't gonna happen!

None of us 'have to get used to it' and it is our right to keep on moaning about it and saying what a great place UK was when we were a member of the EU and what a great effect it had on our standard of living!

Cinders everybody has to come to terms with the fact that we are leaving the EU and article 50 will be triggering it this month.

Most Leavers did not think it would be simple, actually djen they knew it would be a complicated process to extricate ourselves after all those years in the EU.But not impossible...what is done can be undone.
Of course we have to wait and see, unless anybody has a crystal ball.

I voted REMAIN and I know that there are many faults with the EU as a lot of you have said. A more Flexible and less bureaucratic EU would be much better for all concerned. With elections coming up in several EU countries the EU itself may be forced to rethink and so be more in line with UK thinking.

For those reasons the government should be prepared to CALL BREXIT OFF if circumstances change as they may. This would be against the referendum but the referendum is not legally binding and was seriously flawed on both sides.

By all means have a general election or even another referendum in the cold light of day but do not commit economic suicide for the sake of doctrinaire conceptions. I feel that many MPs would like that option but are too timid to even think about it. How many of us on both sides would differently, it would only take half a million voters to change their minds and a few non-voters to vote and the result could easily be the other way.

Leaving without a deal is simply not an option whatever spin and half truths the Brexiters are trying to convince the gullible public.

Parliament must ensure a safe future for our economy, by becoming totally involved.

Spinning that those who are trying to get involved in our future are trying to overturn the referendum is a total lie. They must not be believed.

This should be more concerning. May will leave us in the worst position of all G20 trading nations if she walks away without a deal.

www.open-britain.co.uk/mcfadden_no_deal_with_the_eu_would_leave_uk_in_a_more_extreme_position_than_any_g20_nation

But you are just happy to wait and see? Most leave voters thought it would be simple.

Nobody is talking about joining the Eurozone at this moment or soon; but people like Michael Heseltine have said we would join eventually. I think John Major has said the same; and I would imagine that Tony Blair still sees it, ultimately, as part of having a full measure of influence in the EU.

The EU is a long term project. The creation of the Eurozone was a political move, taken despite economic disadvantages and risks, a stepping stone to greater integration. The Eurozone probably has to integrate further to survive which leaves the question of what would be the influence of the UK in the EU but outside the more integrated Eurozone.

The long term future of the EU and the UK's position within the EU, concerns me. The Referendum 'debate' concentrated on the downside if we left. Few made a convincing, positive argument about the EU itself which many Remainers admit needs reform.

As for sovereignty remaining here, we shall see. The Wilson Government said in 1975 that power within the EU lies with the [9] member states, each of which has a veto over anything it didn't like. We no longer have a veto over everything we do not like. It also said that, if we did not like our experience in the EEC, we could simply repeal the Treaty. Well, simple it ain't and we shall see if happens.

But, Cunco. The government's Article 50 white paper said that we have always had sovereignty. Do you even disbelieve them?

There has been no talk of UK joining the Eurozone - Britain has a lot if concessions at the moment which no other country has.

I see that Whittingdale has asked business to draw up a list of regulations they would like to see scrapped - by the look of the list he has mentioned workers rights would be downgraded.

Welshwife: We had that discussion on Brexit 5 and I don't propose to go over it all again. People had me visiting Full Fact to demonstrate their point of view and each time, I found something there to the contrary.

There seem to be several Remain points of view on sovereignty. Some Remainers say that the EU is not about integration of countries, only peoples. This demonstrably false. Some say the UK has not given up any sovereignty despite the government's acceptance that we did give up some in 1975; and more by the Treaties of Maastricht and Lisbon. Some accept that we have given up some sovereignty and recognise that, by being a core EU country, we would have to give up more, not least by joining the Eurozone.

As for citizenship, people do have dual nationality. Is that what is envisaged by people talking about UK nationals retaining EU citizenship (whatever that is)?

X posts, Welshwife.

You can't have sovereignty in two different countries. The UK always had sovereignty and never gave it up to the EU, whatever brexiters may have been led to believe.

UK never lost sovereignty - that was a myth. Where is the EU not democratic? Beaurocrats are simply Civil Servants - many less for the whole EU than the UK has. The same as in the UK they come up with how you expedite the wishes of the member states/MEPs of the EU - similar set up to UK but on a bigger scale.

Where you live may have a bearing on EU citizenship - that has not been said anywhere that I have seen but it would be a logical place to start

Good post, Cunco.

I know exactly why I voted Leave and, by now, so should anyone who reads these threads. I want the UK to retain its sovereignty and I fear for the future of the EU which I see as centralised, bureaucratic, undemocratic and inflexible. If it were different, I suspect the question of leaving would not have arisen.

I will keep my UK citizenship. If I would benefit from having EU citizenship as well, I would consider the costs, benefits and responsibilities. I may have this wrong and, if so, I am sure you will enlighten me but would you make a choice between either EU citizenship (whatever that is) and UK citizenship or would you have both? If it makes sense for a Remainer, why not a Leaver? Of course, if one had to swear an oath of allegiance to the EU, that would be difficult for a Leaver, at least for this one.

I am sure anyone who fits the criteria could apply to be given EU citizenship, Cunco. I just do not see why a leaver would. You want your sovereignty, which means UK citizenship, surely, not the half and half which we have at the moment.
If you still want EU citizenship, perhaps you should tell the government that you didn't mean to vote the way you did.

I have been grand-parenting all weekend and have just read [above] how the powers that be should seek out Leavers and deny them EU citizenship. Democracy in action! Even that nice Mr Junker hasn't suggested that.

By the way, I don't suppose that I will apply for EU citizenship but, if the terms were right, don't see why a Leaver shouldn't. The terms will be whatever is negotiated. I have no idea what they might be. By the way, if UK citizens could become EU citizens, would that be a privilege open to others say people from US, Russia or anywhere else? It's just a question, not loaded. I would just like to know.

This is an excellent letter from Keir Starmer and Angela Smith to May.
If she doesn't take notice of it, she really does want a hard Brexit, as punishment for the citizens voting for it.

labourlist.org/2017/03/eu-citizens-rights-must-be-protected-and-parliament-must-have-a-say-starmer-and-smiths-letter-to-the-prime-minister/

Agreed. Brexit will be the end of the Union, especially if there is no deal.
May gets more and more like an autocratic nanny every time I see her.

I see the cross Party foreign affairs committee is extremely worried because the government has no plans if we end up with no deal.

I have news for them - the government is making it up as they go along.

We may also lose Scotland, and even Northern Ireland who is beginning to make noises about having Brexit imposed on it with the accompanying dangers from the resultant border.

POGS, I couldn't care less if you accused me of plagiarism or not.

All I said is that I agree with his views.
The men who write other blogs I link to also agree with him.

Yes, Maizie, I read your link yesterday. I always read links, even DM ones, hard to believe, I know.

If I'd put a link up, it would not have been read by those who should read it.

I have a sneaking suspicion, dj that this thread has become something of an echo chamber anyway and is probably being ignored by 'those who should have read it'.

Did you read the 'Britain Thinks' link I posted yesterday? The amount of indifference to the details of this hugely momentous change, and to the maintenance of our Parliamentary democracy, is deeply worrying.

durhamjen

In response to your view :-

" I don't see that it matters who said it"

I hardly accused you of plagiarism , I asked a question in a polite tone and thought you would be happy to provide the answer unquestionably.

I knew it was not your own words , obviously, I simply like to understand the context behind a post and sometimes that involves knowing who the writer is and were the words posted in it's entirety to understand the point being made. If I then choose to critique a post I know the full story , not just jumping on the proverbial band wagon to argue a point for the hell of it.

Article 50 is back in the commons tomorrow. I hope those MPs who agree with the two lords amendments vote that way tomorrow, rather than go along with May's secretive ideas and promises.
I hope they remember that last week the government broke a rather important promise, and that May has had to change her mind about implementing the NIC changes straight away.
Government promises can't be trusted.