funding of Care for the elderly

Oh my goodness, "health tourism" a complete red herring. if it exists (and we don't know that it does, because hospitals don't collect the data, do they) it can be no more than a literal drop in the ocean when set against the cost of NHS and care for our UK residents.
The problem of care costs is not going away. As our post war generation live longer and longer lives, more of us are going to need help at some stage. Combine this with the fact that families can be miles away - abroad even, and have jobs, teenaged kids and other things they cannot just drop. And they may not have a suitable house to install an elderly relative, even if they do not. With smaller families post war, you sometimes meet people with more than just their parents to worry about - the aunt or uncle that never married, the second husband/wife of an elderly parent etc
It is of course a nice idea to leave a house or other inheritance to your kids, but it is ridiculous really, to think this is a right. Why on earth should the state fund the care if the person has resources to pay for it? The state has got enough to contend with looking after the health and care needs of ever increasing numbers of elderly, frail and sick people that have no money at all.

Absolutely - I don't think anyone's saying any different.

I thought the question was whether family members should help towards paying for the care of their elderly relatives, presumably when they either have no assets, or those assets have been exhausted.

One of the most difficult areas is for pople to know what their care options are.

You can get aupairs for the elderly from agencies. This can be a very good way if there are two of you who need some support.

You can get a full time housekeeper from 3700 - £1000 per week if you can pay and go to an agency that recruits foreign workers. The fee per week is lower because they are self employed and have no house and family here so value your contribution of board and lodging.

You can employ a local person to help out as an when needed. And you can have regular help from a local agency. Respite in a local care home etc.

I think it is better to research all the option before you need them as when you do need a care option you are too stressed to get started.

Working it all out

One of the aspects to be considered is that many people who are in nursing homes qualify for continuing care payments, which means that the NHS has to pay their home fees. I managed to get this for my Dad, but it was a battle. The system is poorly administered by folk who do not understand the rules and who are under pressure to cut spending.

If all the people who qualified for these payments actually got them the NHS would crumble.

The OP talks about the 'care of their relative' - Singular - but what can you do when you are responsible for the care of SIX of them? My DH was an only child with at one point (whilst working full time + part-time) responsibility for his DF, DM, and Maiden Aunt all living in rented Council Housing, dependent on their State Pension and with no savings. At the same time I (also working full time to fund our DDs through Uni) shared with my sister the care of my DF, DM and maiden Aunt, After they had all passed, I took on the role of Carer for Ancient Uncle (my father's brother).

I was in my 50's & DH 60's when we spent every spare hour and £ trying to keep all the plates spinning at once. Now 70 I could not do it and I have full time care of DH now. How are people with more than one relative needing care and financial support supposed to manage??

We are told we are all living longer.What is the average age of those in 2016 needing social care 75+?That they have reached this age has to be due to previous good health
Having recently visited a neighbour of mine age 80 in hospital due to a chest infection she was the eldest in her ward of women that I would say were by the looks possibly 55+ these were in for heart and other vital organ problems one would associate with age not 55 Will these ladies reach 80? Possibly with a life long diet of drugs.

I really don't see why the Tories are holding back on this issue - 'care in old age'. Now is the time for them to make significant moves - as at present they have no workable opposition. Why keep pandering to us oldies, simply to retain our votes. Free TV licenses, bus passes, Christmas bonuses and fuel payments should not be paid to all and sundry. I'm not sure how all of the needy should be identified but one section that can be easily identified from HMRC records, are tax payers and the majority of these people shouldn't get these payments.
Jane 10 is right about the short termism that creeps into any decision - MP's are only thinking ahead to the next election. Decisions as important as this should be a cross party concern so that plans can be put in place for much longer periods.
AND finally, bad was the day when local authority homes were phased out in favour of private ones.

Good post, gangy5. It's becoming such a huge problem that no-one wants to grasp the nettle.
It shouldn't be a party political issue because it affects everyone, but the present Tory govt. seem to only want profit-making projects. And their preoccupation with Brexit is taking precedence.

I've often thought that we older people should have representation in Parliament - just had a look on Wiki and fond that one group, the Senior Citizen's party, merged with UKIP in 2014 .
So not much help there.
UK Pensioner's party still exists but very low membership.

Vampire queen: exactly this happened to my family.
My dad was a hardworking family man who saved and stored what little money he had, bought his own small house etc and brought us up in the old "if you can't pay for it, don't buy it" way. He taught us, and we in turn have cascaded the same message to our children and grandchildren..
His sister and husband lived in council house and lived to spend, as did their children.

10 years ago both my dad and his sister went into the same home in the same week; he required nursing care and she needed residential care. Can you guess whose family paid (and nursing care was much more expensive!)......... what lesson does that teach, I wonder??

I could go on for pages and pages on this. I am shocked that successive governments appear not to have realised that the population is getting older, and not necessarily fitter, as if the news has suddenly come upon them without warning. Though they don't do much better at realising that the number of children about to start primary school in Sheffield is higher than the number of places available.

My mum developed dementia in her 70s. It came on rapidly. One day she was okay, the next she was wandering the streets at 3 a.m. in her nightie, banging on neighbour's doors, shops, the post office, the hairdresser. We had to have a care home for her. She wasn't safe. It wasn't a case of whether or not I was willing to look after her, she needed more care than I could give. I have no siblings, no relatives living nearby (most are abroad), and those that were nearby were already caring for their own disabled relatives.

We sold her little terraced house and spent £70,000 on an insurance policy to pay her fees (or most of them - £2,400 a month and rising well above the rate of inflation) for the rest of her life after 3 years. We reckoned the residue of the sale would just about last those 3 years. As it happened, she died unexpectedly a year later. The £70,000 was non-refundable, but I didn't regret paying it cos it gave me peace of mind at the time. I therefore inherited next to nothing, but that didn't matter cos she was my mum and her house was for her, not me. Had she lived longer, I'd have had to delve into my own pocket to pay the shortfall from the insurance policy. And I would have done so, cos fortunately I could afford to. Well, up to a point.

Everyone's circumstances are different, and no one size fits all. I am adamant, however, that no relatives should be required to pay for the care of a parent/aunt or whatever out of their own funds. That just creates a problem further down the generations. I am very comfortably off, but my savings wouldn't last long if I or my husband (who is 70) needed care. Not at the rate of £40,000 a year EACH. And my children have no savings to speak of.

The country needs a radical re-think of care for the elderly. We aren't going to go away. A baby born today will likely live to 100, but probably with disabilities both mental and physical. And gone are the days of final-salary pension schemes, big redundancy payouts, and other things that can help in retirement.

But this country needs a radical re-think of a lot of things, doesn't it? Payments to the low-paid, the sick, the disabled, single-parent families, pensioners with no extra income, and so on. 120,000 children will spend this Christmas in B&B accommodation or worse. How does that improve people's aspirations? How does that encourage anyone to better themselves? How can they even do it, all cramped in one room? These children will likely turn to crime, or drugs, their desperate mothers to drink, or prostitution. I am not saying they all will, cos many have pride and common sense, but you can see how it all too easily can happen.

The government has to realise that it needs to spend to save. Every penny spent on proper housing saves a tenner at least in future problems with delinquency, drug abuse or crime (I made the figure up, I bet it will save more). Every penny spent on welfare benefits saves a tenner in healthcare costs due to people struggling to feed themselves and becoming ill, or being too tired to concentrate at school. Every penny spent on helping the elderly stay in their own homes, or be cared for in a Care Home saves a tenner in treatment for pneumonia, hypothermia, accidents or whatever.

But governments don't seem to see this. Prevention is cheaper than cure.

We are one of the richest nations on earth and we have far too many people in dire straits, and I hate it. I would gladly pay more in income tax to pay for proper social care for everyone who needs it, and that includes benefits. Yes, some will abuse the system, just as some wealthy people escape paying income tax. Without appearing to judge, I'd give more brownie points to the poor person lying to get benefits than I would to Lord Haw Haw escaping a tax bill of two million pounds.

I don't know how we get governments to resolve this - cos it is down to governments, not individuals - cos the Tories won't borrow money to help those in need, and Labour appear to borrow too much and don't help the economy as a whole. And we do need a strong economy to make things affordable. I doubt many of the Tory MPs even know anyone on benefits or struggling with ill health, and nowadays that applies to many Labour MPs. For myself, I vote Lib Dem, but who knows how they would manage it all if they were in power on their own. We had 5 years of the recent coalition and people have already forgotten the good things they insisted upon, but there was loads more that they had to sit back on and accept. So I can't say they have the answers either.

There is in fact only one answer and that is to increase both income tax on individuals and corporation tax on companies. Both have been reduced significantly in the last 30 years with no clear reason why. The UK now has one of the lowest tax rate regimes in the world. The good news is that due to the Lib Dems in coalition a person can earn £221 a week before paying tax, but above that tax must be paid. I cannot see why a sliding scale cannot be introduced, with, say, the first £5,000 above the tax-free figure at 5%, the next £5,000 at 10%, the next £5,000 at 15% and so on, till higher earners pay at (say) 60%. The first increase of 2% to go to the NHS, the next increase to go to The Welfare system, and then education.

Why isn't someone thumping the table on this? Cos they don't care. Well I DO care, and I want government to change things - and fast.

Meg

Great Post Madmeg

I agree madmeg that we have to increase taxes. You cannot fund improvements without adequate funding.

BUT we are a nation of squealers, fuelled by the media, if it is ever suggested we pay more.

Just look at the media coverage and people's attitude towards a rise in Council Tax to help fund Social Care. BBC News saying this will mean an average of £48 rise per annum for a Band D property.

So what? Is it such a Big Deal that a household (not an individual) will have to pay an extra 92p a week? Really?

Many of us would willingly pay more if it was going towards the NHS and Social Care, but there's a whole swathe of the population who would shout and protest like mad

I seem to recall that in the run-up to the last General Election the Conservatives gave a 'cast-iron' pledge to put a cap on care fees in the private sector.

How many us trusted that promise?

Within mere weeks the re-elected administration did one of the most lightning u-turns in the history of modern politics, allowing the Fat-Cats of the private care providers to let rip with eye-watering fee hikes, surcharges, hidden annual 'administration' fees, etc.

It's not a question of will/won't families pay - they just can't!

A question for those who are against family contributions to social care ( not saying it's good or bad, right or wrong, just asking):
Most of you would help out adult children if they had fallen on hard times - why not the older generation? They're all family.

Tory MP Peter Bone has suggested that instead of sending £5 million, yes £5 million to support the ' Ethiopian spice girls' that this money could be diverted to care for the elderly. This is on top of the £4million, yes £4million they have already had. The whole overseas aid project for the ' Ethiopian spice girls' will be £16 million, yes, £16 million has been sighted off.

I don't object to a rise in council tax, Anya. However, it won't raise nearly enough and will lead to greater inequality, because some areas will be able to raise more.

Giving individual LA's the power to raise council tax is all very well and good, but if you live in one of the poorer boroughs in the country your CT is likely to be already above average. As usual raising the CT will mean that the poorest people will pay proportionally more than the rich. I would like to see a reduction in inheritance levels and a clamp down on those clever enough to manipulate the system by putting parents houses and assets into other names to avoid inheritance taxes.

All that aside I still think that there are people who could do more to help their elderly relatives stay at home but choose not to which is very sad.

Peter Bone should do some elementary arithmetic. £5,000,000 would fund 125 people in a care home for a year. Big deal!

I thought you were in favour of improving the lot of women round the world, petra. If the UK wants to take the moral high ground, it should be supporting this kind of cause.

^ "Most of you would help out adult children if they had fallen on hard times - why not the older generation? They're all family." ^

Oh TriciaF, would that some of the older generation had behaved like "family" in the past, and not just demand help when they are old and need it!

I cared for my mother through my A levels and degree, she died before my children were born. I would give every penny I own to care for her today because she was kindness personified. My DH's mother has shown no interest in us or in her GC for over 30 years, we hardly know her, but now she wants our financial assistance. She really doesn't come anywhere near the meaning of the word "family." What is one supposed to do?

I feel there are a lot of people who view their family members in such a way, so this may in some way answer your question.

Interesting post Madmeg.

Not a good comparison either, TriciaF. If elderly parents have 'fallen on hard times' then presumably the state will pay for their care.

Just saying...

Yes, Ana, and also helping adult children is usually only temporary until they get back on their feet, not years and years of paying for care.

So I you don't like the older members of the family you do nothing to help them? I'm being devils advocate here. Should the taxpayer pick up the tab for people who have fallen out with their families?

Whilst I recognise that good care costs money, I do feel that there is some overcharging going on, in the same way that the NHS gets pvercharged.

Well the 6 tax payers in our immediate family have no problem paying for other people's relatives, just not the one in ours!!