Is he being too strict?

I think we have strayed from the original point. This HT is new to the school and his brief is to improve standards. He has decided on a strict uniform policy and wants to enforce this from day 1. No one is saying having a uniform per se is important to being clever, successful or academic. Lots of European / US schools don't have uniform but manage to turn out students prepared for their future. In the UK uniform has been traditional and so is perceived as important. I don't blame this HT for trying to start on a strict note.

If not being able to answer a question because I don't know the answer is avoiding it, then yes, I'm avoiding it.

And I think judging a school on its uniform, rather than on, say, the behaviour of its pupils on the street when in uniform, or the proportion of kids it manages to encourage into tertiary education (of any kind, not just uni), or whether it turns out good citizens (that's connected to the first example), is very shallow. As I said.

So here's an answer. You won't like it. People must be shallow if they think a good way to judge a school is its uniform.

How do people in France and Germany and the US, or people in any country where school uniform is not really a thing, judge schools, I wonder? Must be so difficult for them. Not.

I've seen parents at an expensive school cheerfully stocking up with ties, jumpers and shirts from the used uniform stall (they don't have a blazer) . I don't get why so many state schools have no system to pass on outgrown clothes in good condition.
School summer dresses are usually worn for one term and too small next year, still in near perfect condition. Blazers are very expensive and not especially practical or comfortable.

You're avoiding the question. Many parents do judge schools on the smartness of school uniforms. I doubt if you have school age children and are considering school choices.

I don't expect you've met as many parents as I have. Try following a couple of threads on Mumsnet for starters.

Universities aren't judged on what their students or teachers wear.

No. No idea. I don't know anyone who judges a school by its uniform. It seems to me to be a very shallow thing to judge on given everything else one could base one's judgements about a school on.

Maybe you have some idea why so many British parents do judge a school by its uniform. If they didn't, schools wouldn't try to make a smart impression by having a uniform.

One wonders how schools with no uniform manage discipline at all .

You mentioned lessons learned in relation to obeying rules right next to talk about fee-paying schools, gg, as if it were fee-paying schools and not, by implication, ordinary common or garden state schools, where kids learn useful stuff like why and when it's a good thing to obey rules. Also which rules.

No-one is arguing that obeying rules is always a bad idea or indeed always a good idea, just that some rules are silly and some aren't.

Of course it isn't about my family, but my family is an example (one of thousands millions over several generations) that the fee-paying school bit isn't the important part when it comes to learning how to fit in and be a success in life and in society.

I really didn't say these thing could not be learned elsewhere thatbags just that people value those life lessons.

This thread is not about you and the thatbags family - I am sure you are a wonderful parent - but it is not your sort of parenting we are discussing. It is about whether or not this headmaster, taking over a difficult and failing school was right to do what he did. In the face of the sort of parents who think they "have a right" to send their children as they did and then argue the point I think he was right - for the sake of those very children.

stansgran, Minibags would agree with you about some girls being vile about other girls' clothing. She reckons it's a kind of bullying and that schools do not address bullying enough.

It's peer group pressure rather than anything to do with the school, but I do see the point about a strict uniform being a help in quashing some of that pressure.

My kids learned that stuff at non-fee-paying schools, gg, and also at home. Actually I think home is where most attitudes of that kind are learned, and usually that learning begins even before a child goes to school.

The same HT I mentioned earlier used to say that if a child hasn't learned obedience (not total obedience, but a normal level, your 'knowing which battles to fight') before they start school, then it's touch and go whether they ever learn it.

Good posts Gracesgran. I have two DGC in non uniform school abroad and I really wish the school would be interested in their clothing. I've seen them go into school in torn jeans which sop up the wet and make them blue with cold . I'm talking about January in the snow. Girls are vile if someone is not wearing the " right" clothes.

Your not you

One of the things some parents complain about is the advantages gained at fee paying schools. One of the lessons learned at such establishments is a) what is considered appropriate in what situation and b) when it is appropriate to bend or break written and unwritten rules and not look like a belligerent loud mouth or limit you future chances for the sake of making a small point today. Teaching a child that some battles at some times are not worth fighting and that voicing an opinion on everything now can damage your future is also a lesson many need to learn and are finding out the hard way when employers look back over social media. We all need to obey rules set by other people. Some careers would be completely closed to people who do no know how to do so. If you rise to the top of these you may be able to make changes.

Cheers, gg. I was just going to add that if the uniform rebellion is part of a whole set of bad behaviours then I think HTs have to address the bad behaviour. I think this whole story might be hanging on a bad case of media telling only a quarter of a story.

I really wasn't talking about you Bags but the parents at the school which started this thread. I am sure you and yours have been and are a joy to have as pupils and parents.

Schools do fuss about silly things sometimes. Good schools will bend to reasonable objections to their 'rules'.

When DD2 was seven or eight and beginning to be taught how to write with a dippy ink pen (it was a thing with the HT, writing with dippy pens), she was criticised for smudging. I pointed out that she's left-handed and that it was much harder for a left-hander to write a right-handed script with dippy pens without smudging. They hadn't thought of that!!!!!!!

I asked if she could continue to write with pencil until she overcame the problem (learned how to cope). Initially they said no. I then pointed out that I'd just written an entire PGCE term plan in pencil (it was before easy access to word processing; I already had arthritis in my hands, and writing with pencil caused the least pain) and that this has been totally acceptable to my university tutor who marked it.

They let her continue to write in pencil for a bit longer.

I don't see why reasonable bends can't be made in school uniform rules. If a child is wearing shoes that are "school suitable" (not too high in the heel; not falling off all the time; safe!), then why, really, does it matter? It doesn't. Schools are to educate, not to regiment kids so much that they become like clones or zombies.

At my school, a grammar school, the uniform was very strict. The shabbiest pupils tended to be the cleverest ones, often wearing hand me down items from their older sisters. Some people mowadays seems to think wearing cast offs is shocking. I find that sad.

PS She had objected to collars all her life from being a very small child. It wasn't a new thing.

Er... who said anything about shouting mouths off with regard to uniform, gg? Kids can rebel quietly, you know. Some do. And successfully at that.

At my elder DDs' school the uniform was black trousers/skirt, black sweatshirt, white shirt with a collar. DD2 never wore shirts with collars. She was never pulled up about it because in every respect she was a model pupil. She has been a model employee all her adult life too.

Equating what people wear with behaviour is ridiculous and probably because of underlying prejudice otherwise known as snobbery.

thatbags Penstemmon uniform is not just about general "good behaviour" although if it leads to that so much the better. Schools will also be passing on employability skills - something employers constantly ask for.

Learning to shout your mouth off because you don't agree with or are choosing not to comply with rules is not helping the children. Growing up to be a belligerent, foul-mouthed adult as I remember seeing on some of the reports when schools have been challenged is not helping the children. Being seen to not be able to be part of a team is not helping the children. Not understanding what is appropriate dress (even when you - the newest recruit do not agree that it is appropriate) is not helping the children. Showing poor interpersonal skills is not helping the children. Showing an inability to be flexible to suit to situation is not helping the children.

These parents are not helping their children.

At the school where I am governor, the children do not have to wear uniform, but there are sensible and safe rules about dress, especially for the outdoor lessons, of which there are many.

There is a school T-shirt and sweatshirt and they are asked to wear those when there is a school activity in some other venue - this is basically for safety reasons so that they can be identified and no-one gets lost.

But there would certainly be no fuss about shoe material.

The school is far too busy fostering a family environment and providing true education.

I agree, and so does Minibags, for what it's worth. Uniform takes the stress out of what to wear, to some extent. She still has a lot more choice than I had.

But the issue isn't about the basic argument in favour of uniform. It's about fussing over little bits of uniform, leather or leather-look shoes as opposed to trainers; black tights as opposed to black leggings, etc.

Suspending kids over such trivia is ridiculous.

I mentioned this to DD this afternoon. She works full time and is the mum of 10 year old twin daughters who wear school uniform.

She reckons the mountain of washing is bad enough already - if they were able to choose what to wear to school each day it would be a nightmare! She hasn't got time in the mornings to sort out arguments and possibly unsuitable choices.

I agree there's no need for things like ties and blazers, but I think some form of uniform can be a good thing.